Kicked out - should it be public??

[DL]

OK here is another theoretical sticky wicket to discuss- in the virtual world Herb buys a really good commercial heifer - call her Star ...as time passes Herb decides to register Star with his breed association as a purebred (we will use the Salars as hes breed). Although she is the right color she is not nor never has been a Salars. Herb shows Star as a Salars and wins a national championship. The original breeders of Star calls the Salars Association and tells them that Star is really a Red Poll x Shorthorn ....DNA confirms this.

Herb is banned from registering cattle with the Salars association for 5 years.

Should the association state this in their publication? or should they keep it hush hush?

Should Herb's kids or wife be able to register cattle?

What to you think?(to paraphrase Red - keep it clean - no slander, no nasty stuff  ;D ;D ;D

 

[chambero]

The registration of cattle is kind of private business to me.  Probably shouldn't be made public issues surrounding that.  Notifications should be made by the Assocaitoin to owners of registered progreny whose status would be affected.

The Association should also notify the major breed sanctioned shows.  Said show should then make that single disqualification public.

That should probably be the end of it.  It is theoretically possible an honest mistake could be made in this type of situation - cow got bred by bull you never realized instead of AI etc.

I imagine someday we will be DNA testing all registered animals.

 

[ELBEE]

Depends on how much "hush money" ole Herbie can cough up!

Your Innocent, until you run out of money!

Truth, justice, and the American way!

 

[DL]

Guess Herbie is a rich bugger!

The American Kennel Club (AKC - biggest US dog registry) publishes in their monthly magazine the board meetings in their entirely (word for word) as well as all disciplinary action including how long they are banned and the fine. Most of the cattle breed magazines I have read give a short synopsis of the board meetings - never give how people voted - and really just take up space 

chambero in Herb's case this was fraud - he knew she was a commercial heifer - I agree that mistakes happen and that is different from the virtual scenario of Herb and Star!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Fraud is fraud! Put it out in front of the public so everyone will know the type of individual they are dealing with. Sweep it under the rug and keep it hushed up and what is the punishment other than a little fine or holding registration papers for a set amount of time. We had a similar situation in our breed and they tried to keep it internal and threatened fines and holding papers. This individual simply side stepped the issue and ran all registrations through a son in laws name and kept right on rolling. Grand dad always said a thief is a thief and if everyone knows it they will watch him, but if nobody knows - the thief will steal everybody blind. There is already too much dishonesty in the cattle business with out covering up the ones that got caught.

 

[afhm]

Whether it is made public or not, it will almost always get out eventually so it doesn't really matter.

 

[sjcattleco]

Well I hate cheats and liers!!! worse than sheep...... I say if you get concrete proof..... kick their ass out.....Now there are mistakes made and every case has to be tried seperate but ol Herb ought be be hung out to dry!!!!

Hey what exactly happend to R Lee Johnson??? didn't he get ousted publicly from the ASA for some similar stuff? I know here in Ohio he was a big force and then BOOM gone...

 

[chambero]

DL - My thoughts are that even if a guy commits intentional fraud, he's probably going to argue "accident".  In many cases, it would probably be hard for the Association to know the difference for sure.  I'm not sure they'd have a legally defensible position if they made anything public other than "registration recinded" without taking it to court - which they probably don't have the money to do. 

 

[Gypsy]

Whether it is made public or not, it will almost always get out eventually so it doesn't really matter.

Gotta disagree here.  It does matter, when it does "get out" what "version" will "get out"?  The official "Saler's" Assn. version (Herb's fraud and punishment) should be published in the Saler Monthly Gazette or what ever the official "Saler" publication is, not left to circulate by way of gossip.  Publishing this does a couple of things: 

1.  Gives credibility BACK to the breeder of the heifer "Star", apparently they did not want to be painted with the "cheater's" brush, and did not want to be thought of as a part of this fraud. 

2.  Gives buyers of Herb's cattle a heads-up as to what kind of individual they are considering dealing with or dealt with in the past.

3.  Gives the "Saler" association the reputation of being honest, above board, and concerned about the "Saler" breed and it's credibility.  (Especially and irregardless of whether Herbie is a bazillionaire or a board member or the biggest breeder, etc.)

4.  Gives some little satisfaction to the shower/breeder of the runner-up to Star, the one cheated out of her crown (let's call her Moonbeam). ;D

5.  Everybody makes mistakes (i.e. bull jumps into and out of a pasture, or recorded wrong straw).  Not everybody commits fraud, or lies, or cheats, or etc., these aren't "mistakes" these things are intentional and should not be treated as mistakes.  Most people want wrong doers punished  for the simple reason that there are a lot of people that just don't do wrong things no matter what but, there are also a good number of folks out there that are only kept from doing "wrong" because there IS a punishment.

 

[Telos]

This is a true story... A few years ago a national champion female, sold by some cattle traders to an exhibitor for big dollars, was known to be out of a cow of a different breed. She was registered as a purebred. Another breeder who new this to be fact asked the brokers of this female if  she was out of the cow of the different breed. They told the inquiring breeder to keep their mouth shut or something bad would happen to them, fearing perhaps a refund and maybe a lawsuit from the exhibitor.

Chambero, I enjoy reading your posts and know how you like to look at both sides of the coin, but this time in  my opinion there are not too many honest mistakes on this issue. I feel most of the time these are deliberate criminal acts of greed for the almighty dollar and purple banner.

It's criminal and sleezy.  Punishment should be, if proven guilty, public knowledge at the very least. The hard part is... how do you prove it?

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

DL - My thoughts are that even if a guy commits intentional fraud, he's probably going to argue "accident".  In many cases, it would probably be hard for the Association to know the difference for sure.  I'm not sure they'd have a legally defensible position if they made anything public other than "registration recinded" without taking it to court - which they probably don't have the money to do. 

With todays DNA tests it is hard to claim accident - especialy in the purebred business. hard to claim Heat Seeker was in the next pasture and jumped the fence.

 

[Show Heifer]

Wow.....I say, post it on the highest board....and scream it from the hill tops.
I want to know who I am dealing with, and the only way I can gather information is to research it and FIND IT. (Gee kinda like the TH/PHA thing huh??????)
I am sick of tired of all the cheaters/fraud-est getting away with crap just because they threaten  "lawsuit....slander.....lawyer..."  What about the opposite: What if the assoc KNEW of such fraud, and DIDN"T report it. I buy an animal from the jerk because he seems like a great guy when I am holding a 10,000 check for a heifer, and she comes up a different breed (not just another bull). Do I have the right to sue the assoc for withholding information???   Or what if I get beat by the heifer of said breeder at a National show? My heifer losses value due to fraud. Can I sue the show and assoc for withholding info and not enforcing the assoc rules??  ???
If more people would grow some gonades, the world would straighten out in a hurry because they would soon find themselves not only outnumbered (I hope) or 6 feet under. Either way would be acceptable.
So again, post it. Then post it again.  (clapping)

 

[red]

Good topic DL!

I think it sould be published.  The reserve champion given all the glory w/ a full page ad & promotion of their win.
As far as banning the family. Should they be punished for the dad or will he just register under the kids names?
Sticky wicket!!!

Red

 

[chambero]

My point was I thought the show should post the disqualification (as they should all disqualifications), not necessarily the breed association.  A better solution to eliminate this is to go ahead and require DNA testing and parental verification on all animals registered for show at least.  They already make you do it for donors.  It wouldn't be perfect at first, but within a very few years it would be easy enough to match things up. 

In the actual case - how was it handled?  Was it made public by either the association or the show?

There are lots of animals disqualified in steer shows at Texas (not for registration discrepancies) and its never made public.  One of my high school classmates is the official vet for one of our majors and he's told me recently you'd be surprised how many.  Certainly not all and not all of the winners (not everyone does it and you don't have to to win), but just random calves in the classes.  Many times its just antibiotics, other times its not.  Shows just need to enforce their own existing rules and things would take care of themselves.

I'm not necessarily in favor of prosecution, holding it against someone for life, etc. but there is no problem making public nothing but the facts - this calf was DQ'd for X reason and that's the end of it.  Humiliation goes a long way.  Nothing more is needed in my opinion.

 

[OH Breeder]

If Herb intended to commit a fraudulant act then he should be held accountable for his actions. If he knowingly registered an animal that was not of pure blood and was not of any Saler blood or enough to make registration then he should also be disqualified from registering with that association. Publish the wrong doing just ike we do for speeding, larceny, robbery etc. The breed magazine and the show that it occurred at should both publish it and make a statement to local press that might have been covering this event.

The family- they can' always be accountable for someone elses actions. I have met many families you would not know the kids are related to the parents and vice versa. The individual who committed the act should be penialized for it not the family. The family will have to deal with the after math of Herb's actions. What if Herb and Peaches( his wife) get a divorce? She may want to continue on with cattle and should not have to pay for Herb's mistakes. Peaches may be a stand up person as well as her children.

Somthing that was mentioned earlier, was the DNA testing of animals for registration. With the genetic defects, if a test were madatory for all Maines and all shorhtorns I think you might be surprised on the results of DNA verification. I see nothing wrong with requiring DNA on animals for registery if they can make it economical to do. Sometimes this might be cost prohibitive.

 

[stick]

what was ever the outcome of the happenings at the Ohio State Fair a few years ago? At least I think it was Ohio. My apologies if it wasn't. All I can remember reading about it here in Iowa was the father accused the fitter, the fitter accused the steer jock, the steer jock accused the father. One vicious circle. I think it involved air or corn oil under the hide of a steer. Seem to remember it being a Shorthorn but that might be from another time. I know I'm rambling, so I'll shut up.

 

[kanshow]

I think if they are kicked out for falsifying registration documents, then it ought to be published somewhere....    AQHA, APHA, AKC all do.  There is a need to know by the general public.    Think about it..  A novice has been talking to 'Herb' about buying a heifer but has no clue that Herb has recently been booted from the organization.  So Mr. Novice buys the heifer and then the papers never come.  In the meantime, Novice has put in loads of time & work on a heifer that he intended to show as a registered heifer at the Jr. National or whatever.  Yes Herb is even guiltier for not disclosing and there is probably reason for a civil suit but still if Novice could have done a simple websearch he might have saved all the time and disappointment.   

 

[DL]

Well said kanshow - if Show Heifer hadn't written such a great poem you would be in the running for the Silver Tongue Award (its a good thing - means you are eloquent, erudite or articulate, or since I am the handler of the envelop please that I like what you said) but SH is gonna be hard to beat on this one!

 

[genes]

I think putting it public in a statement from the association is the best way to go.  It helps for the real story to be out there rather than just rumours and exaggerations.  It helps the other cattle people decide who they are willing to forgive and who they aren't, rather than just having a list of names without reasons.  Now I know for some of you that the names would be good enough as pretty much anything that puts someone on a DQ list is bad enough, but other people may consider some evils bigger than others and I think they should be able to distinguish between them.  And as Gypsy said, it reflects well upon the breed association to have it out there what they do and don't take.

The wife question is a little tricky.  For some that work jointly in the cattle, they already have cows in her name and she might have full well known what was going on.  But on the other end of the spectrum if you have a wife who has never registered a calf and all of a sudden starts, when it's really ole Herb, well that's not right either.  But for all those in the middle ground, I think maybe you have to give the wife benefit of the doubt.  I don't know.  Tricky.  What do the other associations mentioned do.

 

[red]

Haven't the Maines published such a list before? I remember years ago several bulls weren't who they were supposed to be & an owner being banned. Maybe I'm dreaming that one up or something.

Red