law suit

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Joe Boy

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Jan 31, 2007
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692
In Texas we have a student who was banned from show competition this year at a couple of shows.  She had a winning ewe last year and in April they disqualified her animal for failing a drug test.  It seems that a product used legally in hogs was found in the ewe's system.  (Personally, I do not like the product as I have seen too many pigs that cannot walk after eating the substance.)  The girl and her father took a lie detector test and past it.  The show supervisors did not give a hearing or lift the ban.  Now a law suit, not over money, but the right to show.

In America we are supposed to be guiltless until tried in a court of our peers.  Yet, every type of thing is believed when it hits the media or gossip channels.  I do not know any of the people involved on either side.  But it seems to me that we must have the facts before the fan blows.

Many states and shows have very stick laws about showing and animals for food consumption.  This is right for the well being of the public and the animal's health!  Yet, when a person is accused who has the burden of proof?  Who was the dirty doer?  Could it have been the breeder?  county agent?  Vo Ag teacher?  Parent?  Child?  Friend?  Fitter?  Family member? or even an opponent?

My son had a lamb that we thought would win a big show.  The lamb took sick as we arrived.  We tube fed it and doctored it.  It became so weak we took it to our trailer.  It died.  I took it to a local vet who posted it.  It died from a lead rope being ingested and blocking the digestive track.  The rope was not the kind we had ever owned.  The lamb was muzzled.  Who did it and when did it happen?  Someone today is still out there that did not want to loose to us.  I was a chairman and had the lamb tested to make sure I would not be sued by anyone who might loose breeding stock or even a lamb that they would take on down the road. 

The burden of proof lies with whom when doping accusations are made?  What if the ewe ate some of the product left in the pen following the pig show which was a few days before?
 

BCCC

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Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
2,087
Location
Hillsboro, TX
are we talking about Ractopamine (aka, paylean) ??? I am not sure paylean will even do anything to sheep???? I gusse I could go buy a feeder lamb, since they arent bringing much. It is very possible that the sheep ate the paylean that was just layinging around. Paylean comes in two forms, either staright as a powder, or as a pellet which is 9 grams per ton. normally with the pellet, you only have to feed  1/2 pound of the pellet to obtain 9 grams per ton of Paylean.

so ..... :'(
 

shorthorns r us

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Apr 9, 2007
Messages
900
optiflex and paylean are being fed to show lambs.  very common.  i think that neither are approved for use in sheep and goats.
 

chambero

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Feb 12, 2007
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Texas
First of all I know nothing about this case or very much about sheep.

If it was optaflexx (or whatever its generic name is), they can probably tell from the residue levels how much was actually fed.  It is extremely unlikely that a lamb with enough muscle to win got ahold of optaflexx accidentally.  I don't know for sure, but you probably have to ingest quite a bit to ever get enough residue to test positive.  That's why folks can get by with Lasix and other stuff.  You really have to abuse it to get caught.

That being said, why isn't it legal to use in sheep?  Is it just because it didn't get FDA tested for them? 

I hate the lawsuit thing in showing.  If you used it and don't get caught fine.  If you do get caught, own up to it, take your lump, and move on.
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
we had a similar thing happen in Ohio. It turned out the feedmill had not cleaned out there mixing equipment between mixes. Some Paylean ended up in sheep feed & there was a big stink afterwards. Maybe this was the case here?

Red
 

chambero

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Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
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Texas
I bet (maybe unfairly) all these cases are just excuses invented by a lawyer.  A lawyer can find a million ways to shoot down positive test results like this.  That being said, when we have a very good steer at a major we don't leave them at night so nobody can mess with them.

Lamb people bend the rules and use Paylean just like steer people use stuff. 

The shows would be better off to just say anything goes.  This is why Fort Worth sends their GC steer to the zoo.  Its why you have to admire Denver for being willing to make a public stand.
 

Jill

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Jan 20, 2007
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Location
Gardner, KS
You can say what you want, I know there are cases out there that animals are tampered with and it has nothing to do with the kids showing them.  In my opinion, 1. you need proof that the kid or family (or the fitter) did the deed 2. if the kid and family has taken a lie detector test and passed it what more are you wanting 3. I would suggest that anyone with a market animal that doesn't want a problem, never let that animal out of their sight.
I know people hate law suits in cases like this, but it doesn't just effect your showing career, negative effects and ramifications go much further than that, it effects the rest of your life and if you are truely innocent you ought to have some way to protect your good name.  In America we still have the theory that you are innocent until proven guilty, why should a kid showing lambs be any different?
 

3GCC

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Feb 8, 2008
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Location
Saegertown, PA.
I agree with Jill 100%. They should have to prove beond a reasonable doubt that the family or kid knew about it.and if they passed a lie detector test than the kid should be aloud to show. there are too many ways that it could have gotten it.
 

kanshow

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May 24, 2007
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Location
Kansas
I agree with Jill too.    This is a young person - the future of the industry.  I think we have to be very mindful of the FULL impact this will have on her and the rest of her life.
 

chambero

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Texas
I missed the part about the lie detector test.  If the show administered it and they passed it that's a different story.  They would have took that before they ever lawyered up because a lawyer won't let a client take one.  The shows ought to lend a lot of credence to that - especially if the parents take them too and not just the kid.

We have an attorney down here that has represented almost every case where someone has tested positive for something.  With the way animals are handled, nobody can ever be proven guilty because chain of custody procedures are impossible to make airtight.

I certainly know people mess with others animals.  As I said, that's why we don't leave ours when we think it might matter.  It's not all that frequent though.  Usually when someone messes with someones animals down here its the dopehead that lets out all the animals at the Ag Barns.
 

shortyisqueen

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Oct 4, 2007
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Alberta, Canada
...Except a polygraph test is highly inaccurate in proving guilt and are not admissible as evidence in court. They simply measure physical reactions, and the results are down to the interpretation of the operator, which makes them highly subjective.

http://www.increasebrainpower.com/lie-detector-test.html

You could drug your lamb, lie about it, and still pass a polygraph test.
 

chambero

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Feb 12, 2007
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Texas
Its extremely unlikely a kid and parent could pass a properly administered polygraph test.

But, that's why lawyers don't let clients take them.  However, if you have nothing to hide there is no reason not to take one.  They've used them in fishing tournaments and other contests for years.
 

Joe Boy

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Jan 31, 2007
Messages
692
It was paylene.

I do not know why anyone would use such a substance on a breeding animal period.  Since you do not want to mess with mother nature's reproduction track.
 

chambero

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Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
I've known folks that implated heifers with steer implants and fed them the Optaflexx just for the purpose of trying to win.  Plenty don't care whether they ever breed or not.  I'd guess sheep folks might do the same thing.

I hope they get things worked favorably - especially if there is truly a doubt whether it was intentional which a passed lie detector test would indicate.
 
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