line breeding

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knabe

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if a mating is 50% mother 50% father, what's wrong with an 11 generation animal (1024 individuals) having one animal appear more than say 64 times?  4 animals say appearing 64 times each?  that's still only 6.25% for each animal, and a total of only 25%.  seems like a low number, unless of course one is compounding negative traits.  what's been the hardest to uncover genetic defect?
 

knabe

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ask them what they see.  this would be a half sib mating.  they can have the same sire with a different cow, or the same cow with a different sire.  the same cow with the same sire would be full sibs. 

which do you have? 

not as many defects will rise with a half sib mating as a test cross which is bull with some of his daughters.  if a defect is recessive, you would need at least 3 offspring to see all the combo's with a standard testcross, but routinely more crosses (on more daughters) are made as the odds of getting one of each genotype is better with more crosses.  this was done for defects such as mule foot in Chi's.


Aa x Aa = Aa, 2Aa, aa  if bull had was a carrier for a recessive single gene trait.  hard to count the dead and aborted ones if you don't know what they are.
 

shorthorns r us

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knabe said:
if a mating is 50% mother 50% father, what's wrong with an 11 generation animal (1024 individuals) having one animal appear more than say 64 times?  4 animals say appearing 64 times each?  that's still only 6.25% for each animal, and a total of only 25%.  seems like a low number, unless of course one is compounding negative traits.  what's been the hardest to uncover genetic defect?

what are you getting at?  does this animal exist?  is this the cow that jumped over the moon.  line breeding intrigues me.  the line bred cattle with which i am familiar impress me.  OCC, ELBEE, & HOODOO.
 

justintime

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I also have used linebreeding very successfully from time to time. One of my herd sires has 3 animals that show up numerous times in the first 8 generations of his pedigree. One shows up 11 times, and two show up 8 times in the first 8 generations. This sire only has one crop on the ground but it appears that he is going to be a very consistent sire. He was also a National Champion himself, so his own phenotype was excellent as well. 

If you are going to use linebreeding, you have to have a pretty good idea of where you are wanting your program to end up. As is the case with inbreeding, it is not something to be routinely used by novices or breeders who do not understand the genetics they are playing with.

I have a very unique female that will be entering our donor herd next spring after she has her first calf. She is the result of a sire used back on his own mother. Both sire and dam are very sound animals, and this heifer is a very outstanding female. I am thinking she should be a very unique breeding piece.
 

dori36

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knabe said:
ask them what they see.  this would be a half sib mating.  they can have the same sire with a different cow, or the same cow with a different sire.  the same cow with the same sire would be full sibs. 

which do you have? 

not as many defects will rise with a half sib mating as a test cross which is bull with some of his daughters.  if a defect is recessive, you would need at least 3 offspring to see all the combo's with a standard testcross, but routinely more crosses (on more daughters) are made as the odds of getting one of each genotype is better with more crosses.  this was done for defects such as mule foot in Chi's.


Aa x Aa = Aa, 2Aa, aa  if bull had was a carrier for a recessive single gene trait.  hard to count the dead and aborted ones if you don't know what they are.

I think Aa x Aa would = AA, Aa, aA, aa, or AA, 2Aa, aa
 

CAB

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As far as a time line goes Knabe, starting @ 0, what are your predictions as to how fast you can put together a great breeding piece? With all of the tech. available, how much faster is it possible to achieve the goal, than it may have been say 25 years ago? What is your predictions as to how many generations it will take? I know that it somewhat of a vague question bc you don't really know how many or when the bad recessive traits may manifest themselves. I hope you put together a great line when you get started.
 

knabe

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SRU said:
what are you getting at?  does this animal exist?

SRU, i didn't have a specific one in mind, but there probably is one.  what i am getting at is there seems to be very few line bred by design maine bulls out there.  i know of a couple that are definately by design, rather than by phenotype only, which there are plenty of and are therefore somewhat linebred, especially with irish whiskey having cunia at least 18 times, even though his grandam was not maine.  however, there are very few with the same animal to see if they need to be in the same generation, one back, stacked on the maternal or paternal side against another one or two in the same generation to emphasize traits of interest.  it seems most lines are based on what nicks rather than concentrating good traits and eliminating bad ones.  it's probably the high cull rate in the first half sib mating that creates a lot of diversity that people don't want to mess with.  also, they won't be used to seeing the frame go away.

look at black gold 500 amaa 500.  depending on how you count, cunia is his sire and grandsire, so he's 75% cunia.  linebreeding might put cunia in the same position in the third generation, or perhaps skip one generation to the 4th and put him there once or twice and fiddle around with whether what you need or have is better through the cow or the bull.  i can't comment on smithbuilts udders, but his full sister sprouted a bull that supposedly had udders that broke down.  don't know if they can be fixed (perhaps that's why he disappeared), while keeping the other traits this combo allows, suffice it to say, there are very few organized examples of this in the maine breed.

to me, line breeding could address combining two extremes like the posty legs with sickle hocks, won't name bulls, but it has been done repeatedly.  or more classicly to cluster a good bull and add a trait or two while trying to avoid the trap of single trait selection and creating a bigger problem than you started with.

CAB, since i have never done this, and am only going to try, if you got extremely lucky, you could do this in the third generation without proving a bull.  you would then have to prove him, so i guess i would say 4 generations.  perhaps this is why it isn't done.  the key with the bad recessives is to find them early and often, not avoid or hide them to make short term gains monetarily.  i have no idea how much faster you could do it compared to 25 years ago.  it will probably be similar to gudgell and simpson when they offered their anxiety line breds, everyone was scared of them till anxiety the 3rd and 2nd? and lord wilton kinda faded.  they even lowered their percentage anxiety just to suit the customers.  sousel i think took over and was heavy into mischief (who he purchased for $150, had a reputation as a shy breeder, and was extremely thin) when he crossed him on one of his cows and struck lightnening.  he then noticed he had linebred by "accident" as he looked at the pedigree of his offspring.  i'm sure the same thing would happen as you would have to compete against all the performance composite breeds.  if you think people are leery of PHA/TH, just wait when they see a bull go through that the auctioneer says, look at this linebred bull, it will probably be a tough road to haul, but i'm gonna do it somehow before the fullbloods go away.  it's really interesting that the traits most people in other breeds are chasing are the exact same ones.
 

CAB

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I admire your thoughts. It could be the starving artist syndrome though. It may take your lifetime. There are way more linebred hogs, or were. We have gotten rid of most of the "swine BREEDER's" with the company hogs. One of their advantages though is that hogs have multiple births, shorter gest. lengths, and don't cost as much/ animal to produce. From my experience though your goal is very interesting and could payoff well, but like I said. It could be a lifelong Project.
 

knabe

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renegade said:
someone wants me to breed my bull to his half sister

here's an example of a half sib mating, same bull, different cow in the third generation

http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/pedigree.asp?RegNo=201777



 

shortdawg

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It's funny you all have a post started on this today b/c me and Doc were just talking about this today. I'm going to try a little line-breeding myself: a Trump/Desert Rose on a Trump/Rodeo Gold Rose. To be more specific CF Primo x Miss V8 Eloquence Rose. She came in heat a little early so I bred her tonight and I plan to hit her again just for good measure in the morning. What do you all think about it ? It sure will stack some good cow families along with the Trump lines. It could work or be a wreck !?!? :-\
 
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