Manufacturing a steer

[Torch]

To Torch, I didn't start this subject....someone else did. I just asked a simple question......

We are new to showing with my daughter and I am sure things have changed since I showed 20 years ago....We have attended four shows around SW Iowa and SE Nebraska and have met many great people and I have to agree with Jill there
are many good things in this business...

HH wasn't harping on you asking just showing you a way to get the answer that didn't keep the negative stuff going and going. It's just that when a topics like this starts to see symbols, the replies can quickly get out of hand.

 

[Show Heifer]

jills quote: aj, why do you start this ****, you have been in this business long enough to have heard all of the horror stories, I don't understand what thrill you get from continuing to rehash the same old trash, why not try and point out the positives in this business instead of trying to continually tear it down.


To point out the not so obvious: In the first three pages of post, aj's post on manufacturing a steer ranks number 2 on "times read", with only "name the bull calf" having more reads.
So, this must be a fairy popular topic to read and reply to. Maybe ol'AJ is on to something.
It is easy to talk about how to grow hair, what bull works or doesn't work, results of a show, and who can foo-foo the best calf. But it is hard to discuss topics that are not so "clean and pretty". It takes guts to try to discuss something that actually requires some amount of brain activity on a deep level. Again, it is the second most popular "read" post on the first three pages of post. That says it all.
Another not so obvious point: If everyone turns into an ostrich, then no "wrongs" will be made "right" and all cheaters, etc will win. I think it takes courage to bring up "not so rosy topics" and try and make others think about what is going on around them. Heck, most people think that pointing out a wrong, and publicizing it is actually the first step to correcting it.
Who knew?

By the way, if this is suppose to be a "youth forum" please do not cuss or use "cuss symbols". Kids are not stupid, they know what #**** means

 

[chambero]

To point out the not so obvious: In the first three pages of post, aj's post on manufacturing a steer ranks number 2 on "times read", with only "name the bull calf" having more reads.
So, this must be a fairy popular topic to read and reply to. Maybe ol'AJ is on to something.

I think it takes courage to bring up "not so rosy topics" and try and make others think about what is going on around them. Heck, most people think that pointing out a wrong, and publicizing it is actually the first step to correcting it.
Who knew?

By the way, if this is suppose to be a "youth forum" please do not cuss or use "cuss symbols". Kids are not stupid, they know what #**** means

It's popular to read because people love gosip.  Courage isn't involved for someone to throw "stinky stuff" against the wall to see if it will stick.

These discussions have validity when someone will discuss specific examples involving a specific incident.  Case in point - the discussion on the stolen calf at the American Royal.  Perfectly valid.

But, to be a good sport and answer the questions for new members that haven't already seen this issue beat to death, buried, and dug back up several times:

I'll bet you a nickel there hasn't ever been a calf that had his brisket cut out.  Go back as far you can remember - how often have you ever seen a great calf that had an obnoxiously large brisket that would require surgery?  I bet the best bet in the world couldn't perform that operation and make that calf look correct.  I've heard the "rumors" also, but I've never heard of "who" had it done.  It doesn't pass the common sense test.  Can you imagine the scar alone?

The tooth thing was real.  I took multiple calves in the late 80s early 90s to OK to "the vet" to have their permanet teeth buds killed.  The procedure wasn't against the rules back then and it was quite a waiting list to get an appointment.  Didn't hurt the calves, they just wouldn't have permanent teeth come up to push out the baby teeth out so quickly.  They never missed a meal.  Thank goodness the majors recognized what a stupid rule the tooth rule was and got rid of it.  One little caveat though - we were always taught that a steer is truly at his prime maturity wise right about the time they lose their baby teeth.

Lasix and dexamethasone were probably the most commonly used drugs on fat steers.  Usually when there is a legitimate case of someone flunking a drug test in Texas with a calf, its dex (per a very good friend and former high school classmate of mine who is the official vet for one of our majors).  Shows and judges have done a good job of eliminating (or at least greatly reducing) the need to use Lasix with the weigh backs and just the type of calves (big bodied with lots of guts) that get used.  You can't pull one down that hard, get them as full as they have to be, and meet the weighback.

A lot of these rumors involve things that happened a couple of decades or more ago when there weren't rules against it (i.e. oiling).  But these posts try to make it sounds like its common today and it absolutely is not.  These calves are gone over with a fine tooth comb by the shows.  Calves are not being surgically altered.  They aren't walking in the show rings full of air.  I doubt sophisticated steriods are being used extensively.  The Texas shows are not catching them if they are.

So short story - there is no such thing and never was of manufacturing a steer.  People push the rules as far as they can go, and used to go over them in a few isolated instances.  But you cannot make a good calf great.  You sure can't make a sorry one good.  I imagine more expiraments have ruined calves than helped them.

 

[AAOK]

Great post, Chambero!

 

[feeder duck]

  So long as there are livestock shows there will be cheating and unethical methods to win. Take out the money and it will still be there. Get rid of one and another will take his or her(equal opportunity offender) place. Showing these days is actually the most fun at the smallest shows.

 

[aj]

I was wondering mostly about the the brisket deal. I don't think they were cutting out fat just tying up loose skin. What few show I went to I once saw them icing down the fat in the brisket(Iassume to try and shrink it up). I think brisket equals fleshin ability so I like a little front end. I remember seeing the neck wraps or what ever to sweat off front ends. I couldn't see how that could possibly work but maybe it did. I just heard the one outfit did it and I never heard of the front end metriculation deal before. I spose it would be illegal however comestic dehorning isn't. Is dying legal or illegal or depends on the show?

 

[rtmcc]

I was wondering mostly about the the brisket deal. I don't think they were cutting out fat just tying up loose skin. What few show I went to I once saw them icing down the fat in the brisket(Iassume to try and shrink it up).

AJ, we will hold an ice pack on the brisket of an animal while we are fitting them in the summer if the animal is getting hot in the chute.  Obviously their heart lies between their legs so icing this area helps to cool the blood flow and cool the animal down.  I assume this is what you saw.  Just trying to keep the animal comfortable and calm before it is shown.

Ron
<cowboy>

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Just caught a guy 3 years ago pumping air into a steer from a compressor. Showed up 10 minutes early to breed a cow for him and walked in on him. He freaked out and told me I better never tell anybody. Well he still owes me 500 bucks for breeding so I don't care who knows really lol. He is a big show guy around here, even has a bull in Lautner's catalog. People like him is why I stay in the pasture. (dog)  I know I said I would not post here anymore but hey, I lasted a week or so. <rock> Hope everyones calves are doing well and your all smiling!

 

[aj]

Cool,......I was wondering what the heck. Thanks Ron.

 

[FutureBreeder2013]

Neck sweats arnt at all bad its something you leave on for a few hours a day to reduce the amount of "turkey neck" on your animal

 

[The Show]

Is dying legal or illegal or depends on the show?

Most shows word it something like you can't alter the natural color of the animal meaning don't dye a charlois black and call it an angus. I know LOTS of people that dye their calves the day before at home though. If my ag teacher knew I dyed my calves he'd have a fit! Bc he thinks it's pointless and against the rules(he also thinks the same about painting/fitting). I fitted a Limi last year at FW and when they got done they went to wash her out and my ag teacher and another guy started freaking out saying he was gonna get DQ'd if anybody saw the the black water from the paint that was washing out of the calf.

The neck sweats your talking about aren't bad either, you can really clean a calf up by sweating it.

 

[simtal]

Is dying legal or illegal or depends on the show?

If steer is pumped and no one sees it, was he really pumped?

 

[bobtom]

I know this is my first post and everything that goes along with that. I am form the olden days where this stuff was a daily practice.

In my life time I have seen more things done to cattle that would make most people sick. And in the past couple of year I have seen people start bring back the old ways we used to do things.  To name a few, I have help remove ligaments from steer pasterns to help them form popping them.  I seen steer tops cut open and muscle cut to stop them for roaching. And have see the after math of briskets cut out. All I  can say is hair covers a lot. I still have people come to me and have them air their calves. I am not saying it is right but it will never stop as long as there are purple banners out there to be won. And as long as there are states that don’t care like ours that does not test for anything. I will never stop.

 

[mooch]

I know this is my first post and everything that goes along with that. I am form the olden days where this stuff was a daily practice.

In my life time I have seen more things done to cattle that would make most people sick. And in the past couple of year I have seen people start bring back the old ways we used to do things.  To name a few, I have help remove ligaments from steer pasterns to help them form popping them.  I seen steer tops cut open and muscle cut to stop them for roaching. And have see the after math of briskets cut out. All I   can say is hair covers a lot. I still have people come to me and have them air their calves. I am not saying it is right but it will never stop as long as there are purple banners out there to be won. And as long as there are states that don’t care like ours that does not test for anything. I will never stop.

Wow great first post! You sound like you are definitely a legend.You and cats like you you are why there are shows now a days that have 18 head of market animals show up. Your last sentence clearly shows why folks should keep their kids as far away from you as they can.Some of what has been stated in this thread is true some is not. Some of you I will never figure out why you are posting on a board that deals primarily in Jr. show cattle if it repulses you so much.It must be the entertaimment factor in getting people stirred up, as I would guess this post was started to do.

 

[advocate]

Trevor are you sure it wasn't a small species maybe a goat

 

[Cowfarmer65]

For all the nay sayers out there. Approximately 20 years ago there was an incident that happened at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto. In the 4H steer show known as the "Queens Guineas", the Grand Champion was found to have had it's brisket altered. The young fellow who had entered the steer, it was owned by an outside party, a family of steer jockeys, was banned from showing at the Royal and the steer was disquailified..This happened following the sale. The steer had sold for I believe $ 30.00/ pound.....This incident crippled the Queens Guineas and to this day their entries have suffered and there hasn't been any record setting prices either......Quite the opposite...Brutal is the word to use.
So yes it has happened and believe me animals are still being altered....I know of a few people in the show world who I will refer to as Chemists and no I am not one of them. Never have, never will.

 

[jlingle]

I know this is my first post and everything that goes along with that. I am form the olden days where this stuff was a daily practice.

In my life time I have seen more things done to cattle that would make most people sick. And in the past couple of year I have seen people start bring back the old ways we used to do things.  To name a few, I have help remove ligaments from steer pasterns to help them form popping them.  I seen steer tops cut open and muscle cut to stop them for roaching. And have see the after math of briskets cut out. All I   can say is hair covers a lot. I still have people come to me and have them air their calves. I am not saying it is right but it will never stop as long as there are purple banners out there to be won. And as long as there are states that don’t care like ours that does not test for anything. I will never stop.

Holy crap.... the only honest response I've read. <beer>

 

[colosteers]

I know this is my first post and everything that goes along with that. I am form the olden days where this stuff was a daily practice.

In my life time I have seen more things done to cattle that would make most people sick. And in the past couple of year I have seen people start bring back the old ways we used to do things.  To name a few, I have help remove ligaments from steer pasterns to help them form popping them.  I seen steer tops cut open and muscle cut to stop them for roaching. And have see the after math of briskets cut out. All I   can say is hair covers a lot. I still have people come to me and have them air their calves. I am not saying it is right but it will never stop as long as there are purple banners out there to be won. And as long as there are states that don’t care like ours that does not test for anything. I will never stop.

bobtom--  You must have balls of steel to post what you did,  so as long as ya have gone this far,  --  what do you charge, how many steers have you worked on,  and what are the side effects or how often does this ruin a steer?    Ever been caught and gone to jail,  banned from shows, ever felt like a fool when a judge obviously knocks a steer to last place?   

Ya gotta tell the rest of the story--  bragging to a bunch of juniors about your below the table activities could only even start to be right if ya tell the whole story.

looking forward to hearing the rest

 

[IH Ed]

I don't think That he was bragging. I think that he was saying that people are nieve if they think that it doesn't exist. Not everybody is ( for lack of a better term) a Freddy 4 Her.

 

[Dusty]

I don't think That he was bragging. I think that he was saying that people are nieve if they think that it doesn't exist. Not everybody is ( for lack of a better term) a Freddy 4 Her.

I don't think he was bragging either.  I think he was just being honest as to what goes on and has guts to say that he is one of the people do it.