Maternal Charolais Bull

[Barry Farms]

Suggestions for a Purebred Charolais bull that will have good daughters to keep as replacements but still be pretty enough for show cattle? I will post the Pedigrees later but for now the only thing I have ruled out is Firewater because I want to be able to breed the resulting heifers to him. I think one of the cows is a Bluegrass and one is a Wyoming wind but not sure.

Current Ideas are:
JWK Impressive D040 - http://cattlevisions.com/bull_detail.php?BullId=496
Chunky Monkey - http://cattlevisions.com/bull_detail.php?BullId=3778
PF Infinite Justice 1001 - http://cattlevisions.com/bull_detail.php?BullId=670

 

[Freddy]

My pick of your 3 bulls would be the son of the IMPRESSIVE D040 bull with 914 mother ,because he has adequate milk and other wise the bulls are quite a bit alike ..
I have used DO40 and like him a lot but the ones I had were a tad short on milk .....Might look at GRIDMAKER bull , I have not used him  but did buy some of his semen the other day because he has been around for a while and held up pretty good ....  LT LEDGER  is a bull with a very good pedigree and number's but is still young , got a real nice heifer calf today out of him....  Will give you a no. of a bull that is pretty well proven and I do have some of that semen for sale ....M445862 is the bull and I used some of him over the years and are flushing two of his daughters at the present time ....One of them I have flushed for a number of years and she averages about 25 eggs a flush an also has produced some higher money one's ....He kept himself in the top of the EPD'S list for quite a few years ...

 

[Mark H]

So you are saying that you do not want to use a bull with any Bluegrass or Firewater in him?  Not much to go on from what you say but some bulls with semen to look at that put out good cows are:
Gerrard Montezuma
Sparrows Sanchez
JDJ Smokester
calving ease: WR Wrangler
outlier: DCR Mr Solution

 

[BogartBlondes]

Definitely Gerrard Montezuma would be a good match! We have had good luck with DR Revelation, we Calved out three daughters this year and they had lots of milk and were good mothers.

I haven't had good luck with LT Ledger, but others have.

 

[crystalcreek]

A very under-utilized maternal bull is M6 Full Throttle 2138 PET. 
He is available at Bovine Elite http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd2.asp?idProduct=1950&id2nd=30

He is sired by 914, who has been a multiple trait leader too many times to count.  He (914) ranks top 10% or better in the breed for calving ease, weaning weight, milk, total maternal, and backFAT.  As a result, Full Throttle has impressive EPDs for milk, maternal calving ease, total maternal, and backFAT (top 10% or better) and he also has a top 10% or better carcass weight EPD. 

His offspring are level-topped, deep chested, and sound as can be, with plenty of width between both the two front feet and the two back feet.  Impressive hipped, pretty uddered.  They are moderate-framed cows.  I have one and have seen others at sales.  They are beautiful cows and best mothers you can find. 

The D040 daughters have worked well with Firewater, but old timers in the breed tell me he (D040) doesn't produce consistently, and you are either going to get a great one or a bad one.  I do not personally know this to be a fact, it's just what the guys with more experience than me have said.  No doubt the FW x 0641 (a D040) works.  She has generated a million in sales of progeny bred to FW. 

On the other hand, 914 x Cigar is known to work and known to work consistently.  If you want a female to breed to Firewater (who is out of a Cigar daughter) down the road, I don't think you could go wrong with either 914 or Full Throttle.  There are some straws floating around of 914 in the $200-300 range.  Full Throttle is $25.  You will have to contact owner Jack Gambill for certificate signings as Doug Shockey is now deceased.

Here is a picture of Full Throttle and some of my Full Throttle daughter.  Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[crystalcreek]

I guess I should comment on her production ability.  She has a yearling daughter we are going to flush using heifer sexed Firewater after this female calves.  She's pretty sweet, but all I have are pics rough in the pasture.

 

[crystalcreek]

Another pic of the Full Throttle daughter, dried off after weaning her calf.  Seven years old here.

 

[Barry Farms]

Definitely Gerrard Montezuma would be a good match! We have had good luck with DR Revelation, we Calved out three daughters this year and they had lots of milk and were good mothers.

I haven't had good luck with LT Ledger, but others have.

These cows first calves came out of LT Ledger, was considering breeding them back but I was unimpressed, not the level of muscle I expected from a char and plain made. On the other hand great growth and born un-assassinated out of 2 first calf heifers so good commercials for sure. Bull calf was 3 days early and smaller than heifer who was 2 days early.

 

[Barry Farms]

And yes, preferably no Bluegrass or Firewater because that would limit their breeding potential.

Would Smokester be safe to use on second-calvers? To make their second calf I mean.

 

[crystalcreek]

Sounds like you might be needing more power right off the bat.  In that case, look also at M6 Cool Rep, also available at Bovine Elite  http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd2.asp?idProduct=4341&id2nd=40

He is sired by M6 Cool Dude and 914 is already on the bottom.  When I attended the M6 sale last fall, those Cool Dude females all had wonderful, large, productive udders and huge growthy calves at side.  Some of the best Cool Rep heifer calves that I saw were out of Wyoming Wind or 0383 (a Wyoming Wind son) females, so if that's what you have, it might work for you. 

Cool Rep is producing show calf style with the production EPD numbers that will get your bull calves sold, if you have a bull instead of a heifer.  In fact, he's the #1 multi trait leader this Spring.  He has a son that isn't on market that just sold for $105,000 for half interest and half possession.  My 1st grader daughter hung all over that bull he had a phenomenal disposition and lived up to all the hype.  If you want to try that bull, contact me PM and I'll tell you how to get his semen, as he isn't publicly offered for 2 yrs.

No personal interest in any of these bulls, just have seen what they are in person and believe in them.

 

[crystalcreek]

Might wait on Smokester for after the second calf, but he is a good one. 

For those genetics, look at WC Benelli, by Passport, by Smokester.  914 on the bottom, and Passport is a full brother to Marion who has produced many National show winners bred to Firewater.  Between the Fasttrack and the 914 behind Benelli, hopefully his calving ease will be better, even though he his young and unproven.  His dam, Clarice, is one of the best 914 daughters out there. 

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd2.asp?idProduct=4473&id2nd=35

 

[Freddy]

If you have lot's of muscle at birth ,your percentage of live calves goes down .  The Cigar breeding definitely will produce more bone and muscle and not the greatest
fertility .. Have watched the breed for fifty years and have Cigar daughters, they are real pretty but add growth, birth and low on fertility, have less of them around every year and not because of old age ...FIREWATER has a shot of Cigar ,first calf I had out FW and WYO-WIND -UNLIMITED EASE cow you might of liked all his thickness and muscle ,except he was backward and didn't make the pull ,took to a vet and he didn't cesarean him... 

 

[crystalcreek]

We love our Cigar daughter and no issues with fertility here.  We flushed her to 914, got 19 embryos, put five in fresh that were mostly grade two and grade three embryos and every one of them stuck.  So we got five pregnancies and were able to freeze all our grade 1 embryos for later, what a way to maximize a flush!  A grade three Man Among Boys embryo that probably should not have stuck in a recip of body condition score of 4 nevertheless made a pregnancy for us.  I know everyone's experience can be different.

Here she is.  Thats a Gridmaker tailhead visible through the fence behind her, very different cows there.

I do know that all around the country Cigar daughters are being scooped up right and left at impressive prices to become donor cows in somebody's ET program.  They must have some merit.

 

[RyanChandler]

Full Throttle is twice the bull Firewater is. 

 

[whitecow]

WR Wrangler 601 would be my choice. Low birth weight EPD with big growth numbers. His milk EPD is low but I don't expect that will really be a problem. A Wrangler x Firewater son (TR MR Wrangle up 2502Z) topped the Thomas Ranch bull sale last year. Wrangler seems to be working very well on Firewater daughters, maybe that can work in reverse also.

As for Cigar, great bull and works well with 914. We have had lots of Cigar daughters and have seen no fertility issues. Most settle 1st service AI and tend to move up a month or so in calving each year. I have 9 clones of the "248" cow who is  Cigar x 914. We have averaged over 19 embryos per flush. 27 embryos recently on a flush to Turton (Firewater x 0641 former Nation Champion) and 15 embryos on a flush to Wrangler. Wish I had more recips!

 

[crystalcreek]

When I think of Cigar x 914, she (the 248 cow) is who I think of.  One of my all-time favorite females.

She has a donor daughter in MN who flushed 26 good embryos in the middle of a blizzard which hampered a second insemination during the flush cycle and she was bred only once, using a single straw of semen.    Four fresh transfers; three pregnancies; 22 frozen grade one's in the bank.  One of the most fertile females in production.  I believe her next flush was 53, they had to turn her way down after that.

 

[Charo]

I like what I see so far from the bull Wr Wrangler 601. First picture a bull calf of him born 5 January at 75 pounds. And the second picture with his mother a Shelco Made Easy 512R X Cave Midas 132M.

 

[Barry Farms]

M6 GridMaker 104 Pld
http://cattlevisions.com/bull_detail.php?BullId=502

Good or bad?

 

[Mark H]

So you want more power!  SVY Pligrim fits the bill and puts out good females.  He is definitely worth a look.  Heifers from him have been shown successfully.
The M6 program is a very good and successful program.  They raise some of the best spread charolais bulls around. 
I haave a question about a bull EC Reliable 5043 Pld.  Anyone seen any calves from him?

 

[Freddy]

The Gridmaker bull will have higher accurracy and more proven then some of the bulls and has stayed around and kept producing semen ...This is a good foundation for starting a cow herd .....  I looked more at the FULL THROTTLE and was impressed by his numbers and his sire is also one of those solid foundation type sires .....