aj
Well-known member
Lets throw some monkey mouth carriers out there. I think cunia is a great bull but I beleive he is monkey mouth. The great one and only warhorse is monkey mouth along with being th and pha positive. A triple crown winner!
monkey mouth carriers
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afhm
Well-known member
Power Plant lines carry the defect.
knabe
Well-known member
anyone know if someone did a systamatic mating of cunia to his daughters to test for this and see if it was a true recessive ratio, like say 30 daughters like was done for many traits including mule foot in chi's?
knabe
Well-known member
aa black gold 500 reg no. 500 is double bred cunia, is he clean? turn the question around, cunia line breds, monkey mouth free.
Telos
Well-known member
OK, I will show off my ignorance... Cunia is a monkey mouth carrier. I have be told by my friends, whom I consider Cunia freaks, that the more you linebreed or inbreed him and select the ones free of monkey mouth the more recessive this particular gene becomes. OK, Knabe this is your chance to show off your gene knowledge. Does this make any sense?
I do not remember anyone ever saying monkey mouth was in anything other then Cunia.
I do not remember anyone ever saying monkey mouth was in anything other then Cunia.
shorthorns r us
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half of half of half of half of half (0.03125) is a whole lot less than the original half
Cowboy
Well-known member
Ah Monley Mouth -- we've all either had one or seen one -- not the best thig to have in your herd, but in most cases at least not lethal.
Monkey Mouth is just that -- the reverse of Parrot Mouth, a parrot is by nature over shot on top to better handle the seeds etc he eats. The TOP of it's head it longer than the bottom.
A Monkey however looks to have a longer lower jaw, every monkey I have seen pics of have thier teeth showing, thus the term Mopnkey Mouth. This is an optical illusion however, the Lower jaw is not longer actually, it is the entire top portion of the head that is short. This makes them look like they have a long jaw, but the ones I have had or seen have all been normal on the bottom, and the rest of the head is shorter -- the eyes are kind of squinted as well. Most of them are poor doers , they have a harder time eating due to the misplacement of teeth alignment. Usually they have other factors too, Spastic Pariesis, severe toe out, no hock flexion and the list goes on.
Cunia and Powerplant are the two main-line pedigrees that will do this, especially when they are crossed on each other or - in the case of Chill Factor - a Cunia daughter bred to Cunia to produce Cold Front, then again, Cunia used to produce Chill Factor -=- line breeding yes, but the Monkey Mouth gene was for sure extended. I used Chill Factor on my best Foreplay one year -- got a really good hfr, a little too straight, but good. 2 years later I used him again only to produce a real wreck.
He was monkey mouth really bad, toed out at least 50 degrees both front and back, plus had spastic pariesis and also was stiffled from 60 days on, and bucked on both fronts as well. A real wreck -- so there went the gene pool I'd say!
Bulls of today that are a result of line breeding Cunia and or Powerplant are also going to produce the Monkey Mouth affliction. Full Flush has sired some as well, as has Heat Wave and Heet Seeker (No direct Vunia there -- but was the Shorty side in Heet Seeker a result of a percentage Maine Cunia??) Who knows -- but it is surely out there!
Go Dr Beever -- your next great project!!!
Terry
Monkey Mouth is just that -- the reverse of Parrot Mouth, a parrot is by nature over shot on top to better handle the seeds etc he eats. The TOP of it's head it longer than the bottom.
A Monkey however looks to have a longer lower jaw, every monkey I have seen pics of have thier teeth showing, thus the term Mopnkey Mouth. This is an optical illusion however, the Lower jaw is not longer actually, it is the entire top portion of the head that is short. This makes them look like they have a long jaw, but the ones I have had or seen have all been normal on the bottom, and the rest of the head is shorter -- the eyes are kind of squinted as well. Most of them are poor doers , they have a harder time eating due to the misplacement of teeth alignment. Usually they have other factors too, Spastic Pariesis, severe toe out, no hock flexion and the list goes on.
Cunia and Powerplant are the two main-line pedigrees that will do this, especially when they are crossed on each other or - in the case of Chill Factor - a Cunia daughter bred to Cunia to produce Cold Front, then again, Cunia used to produce Chill Factor -=- line breeding yes, but the Monkey Mouth gene was for sure extended. I used Chill Factor on my best Foreplay one year -- got a really good hfr, a little too straight, but good. 2 years later I used him again only to produce a real wreck.
He was monkey mouth really bad, toed out at least 50 degrees both front and back, plus had spastic pariesis and also was stiffled from 60 days on, and bucked on both fronts as well. A real wreck -- so there went the gene pool I'd say!
Bulls of today that are a result of line breeding Cunia and or Powerplant are also going to produce the Monkey Mouth affliction. Full Flush has sired some as well, as has Heat Wave and Heet Seeker (No direct Vunia there -- but was the Shorty side in Heet Seeker a result of a percentage Maine Cunia??) Who knows -- but it is surely out there!
Go Dr Beever -- your next great project!!!
Terry
SRU said:
Man yer good!
This is a link to a pdf written in part by Dr Liepold - who was basically the genetic guru of cattle (prior to Dr B of course) it is in the cow calf management guide and has a bunch of colored pictures
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/pdfs/bch/01900.pdf
Telos
Well-known member
So...Power Plant being out of a Cunia cow is where he probably got the carrier status of this defect?
Is Monkey Mouth less common today or do breeders just practice the Don't Ask- Don't Telll scenario?
Is Monkey Mouth less common today or do breeders just practice the Don't Ask- Don't Telll scenario?
DLD
Well-known member
There was a line bred Cunia son that was fairly popular back in the '80s, at least around these parts (highly promoted by DAG in it's heyday) that was called Ace (not sure of his registered name right offhand, but I'll find it). I recall seeing quite a few monkey mouths out of him, including one my father in law raised. Ace was the sire of Babe Ruth, who was also out of a Cunia cow (she was line bred in fact too, I believe), but out of the many, many calves I've seen out of Babe and out of his sons and daughters, I don't recall any monkey mouths.
Show Heifer
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Telos: JMO but I feel that it is DADT (Don't ask, don't tell) policy. Hmmmmmmm.....
DLD
Well-known member
Ace's registered name was Black Perfection 22, AMAA# 115445. Babe's was MF Babe Ruth 01B, AMAA# 170004. Telos, you and the other pedigree guru's might find this an interesting read...
Telos
Well-known member
DLD--Hanging out in your neck of the woods, way back when....I am a little familar with that breeding. I find Cowboy's observation about monkey mouth and the feet toeing out quite interesting. If you look at Cunia's photo he also looks poorly designed off his front end and not connected properly in his knee joint and cannon bone area.
I have always suspected a good deal of the 'front end' issues we sometimes see in todays clubby breeding is due to too much of the Cunia influence.
I have always suspected a good deal of the 'front end' issues we sometimes see in todays clubby breeding is due to too much of the Cunia influence.
DLD
Well-known member
Absolutely Telos, I think the monkey mouth thing usually does go hand in hand with structural issues. I'm sure alot of todays structural issues can be traced back to Cunia - he's had such a tremendous influence on so many of today's popular bloodlines.
knabe
Well-known member
knabe
Well-known member
i had never heard before there were other phenotypes associated with monkey mouth, ie leg issue. it seems to me that the defect is something to do with cell spacing being constricted somehow, ie, if the head doesn't elongate, the shoulder doesn't fully cover what it should constricting it's eventual movement and the spasitc thing is starting to make sense. this is classic descriptions of a cascade of gene expression. this leads me to believe that the expression, more recessive, in intent is accurate, but not accurate in that the reason it is more recessive is that there is probably more than one gene involved.
see this paper for a boring discussion of how genes work
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/GR-2096Rv1
right now, we are finishing up sequencing at least one representative of most of the genes in human, frog, zebrafish rat, mouse. there are many what are called alternative splice forms of these genes either because they have a single nucleotide polymorphism (a change in base from C to T, called a snp for short), and that the protein truncates early like in PHA, I don't remember about TH. when i was at a previous company, for some genes, we found 15 to 15 alternative splice forms for EACH gene. some were garbage and were in the middle of being transcribed, which is the source of mRNA used to create cDNA libraries, but some of these alternatives can be regulated by promoters, either upstream or downstream, or on another chromosome, ie epigenetics, all kinds of things. geneticists like to call the single gene traits the low hanging fruit, ie easy to get. it's the multiple gene defects, and or multiple copy defects like hunningtons disease, which was found on chromosome 19 in humans by one of the guys in our lab because he assembled it, someone figured it out, and wham, a discovery! monkey mouth is probably not like that, but probably either multigenic. whether a trait is a single gene determines if researchers will go after them, because it's relatively straightforward to do it. there really isn't a track record of success for the multigenic or expression based defects. this is why genomics is changing and the community is looking at the perspective called the transcripome instead of the genome. just like any log leap in understanding, there will be pitfalls, low hanging fruit etc. what drives biology is new ways to screen or seive what you are looking for. an alternative to that is smart screening, like in the pharma industry, where there are literally thousands of slightly modified compounds, and most of them have been tested, but now that we can look at differences in genomes between individuals, more and more medicines are going to be tailored for a transcriptome. the easiest way to think of this is viagra. you proably heard the other day that people can have rapid onset of deafness (not blindness) from using viagra. well, those people probably have some little thing that is incompatible, but the vast majority of the population will continue to enjoy the product. perhaps they will even make a test to see if you are compatible. also think of the commercials where they say a simple blood test is necessary before your doctor can prescribe so and so. this is why pharma is so expensive. can't wait for hillary care.
so if monkey mouth is multigenic, lets just say for comparison, it's like the tenderness genes. you need all 6 to have a 2.2 lb less force necessary to pierce steak with relatively blunt "knife".
the more "stars" you remove, the more "recessive" the effect. probably there are some combo's where you have 1 or more stars and the phenotype is gone. so one day it could come down to , so and so bull only has 2 of the monkey mouth stars, and needs 4 to start manifesting, so only breed to cows with so many "stars" or in this case i guess you could call them black holes.
savvy?
see this paper for a boring discussion of how genes work
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/GR-2096Rv1
right now, we are finishing up sequencing at least one representative of most of the genes in human, frog, zebrafish rat, mouse. there are many what are called alternative splice forms of these genes either because they have a single nucleotide polymorphism (a change in base from C to T, called a snp for short), and that the protein truncates early like in PHA, I don't remember about TH. when i was at a previous company, for some genes, we found 15 to 15 alternative splice forms for EACH gene. some were garbage and were in the middle of being transcribed, which is the source of mRNA used to create cDNA libraries, but some of these alternatives can be regulated by promoters, either upstream or downstream, or on another chromosome, ie epigenetics, all kinds of things. geneticists like to call the single gene traits the low hanging fruit, ie easy to get. it's the multiple gene defects, and or multiple copy defects like hunningtons disease, which was found on chromosome 19 in humans by one of the guys in our lab because he assembled it, someone figured it out, and wham, a discovery! monkey mouth is probably not like that, but probably either multigenic. whether a trait is a single gene determines if researchers will go after them, because it's relatively straightforward to do it. there really isn't a track record of success for the multigenic or expression based defects. this is why genomics is changing and the community is looking at the perspective called the transcripome instead of the genome. just like any log leap in understanding, there will be pitfalls, low hanging fruit etc. what drives biology is new ways to screen or seive what you are looking for. an alternative to that is smart screening, like in the pharma industry, where there are literally thousands of slightly modified compounds, and most of them have been tested, but now that we can look at differences in genomes between individuals, more and more medicines are going to be tailored for a transcriptome. the easiest way to think of this is viagra. you proably heard the other day that people can have rapid onset of deafness (not blindness) from using viagra. well, those people probably have some little thing that is incompatible, but the vast majority of the population will continue to enjoy the product. perhaps they will even make a test to see if you are compatible. also think of the commercials where they say a simple blood test is necessary before your doctor can prescribe so and so. this is why pharma is so expensive. can't wait for hillary care.
so if monkey mouth is multigenic, lets just say for comparison, it's like the tenderness genes. you need all 6 to have a 2.2 lb less force necessary to pierce steak with relatively blunt "knife".
the more "stars" you remove, the more "recessive" the effect. probably there are some combo's where you have 1 or more stars and the phenotype is gone. so one day it could come down to , so and so bull only has 2 of the monkey mouth stars, and needs 4 to start manifesting, so only breed to cows with so many "stars" or in this case i guess you could call them black holes.
savvy?
Cowboy
Well-known member
Knabe -- I would love to brew up a double strong pot of coffee some day and just sit and pick your brain, I am so totally confused right now -- I hope I can still type correctly!!! hehehehe
Your inputs in the workings of genetics are impressive and much appreciated. When I talk cows, I use good old Cowboy language, it's much esier to read let alone SAY -- hehehehe!!!
When I refference the great Cunia in my earlier post -- I wanted to say more on the lines of him being such a prominent player back in the late 80's and 90's. He was used on every thing that had 4 legs, and worked on most of them. I was not his first generation that had alot of problems, it was when he was crossed heavily with some other blood -- Chi comes to mind as wlel, that th eproblems really started to show. He may have had lots of structure issues himself as I had never seen him in person (No one had), but hispictures sure looked straight shouldered to me.
We had used Chill Factor as I mentioned, Chill Factor is a Cunia son from a Cold Front dam. Cold front is a Cunia son from a Cunia daughter I think, meybe it's the other way around, I can't remember now. Any way he had 3 direct line bred crosses in his first two generations. My Foreplay is of course a grand-daughter of Powerplant on top, but the bottom also had Cunia and Powerplant there as well. She is out of a Whiskas dam (Powerplant x KK New Design) and her mother was a Kodiak ( Cunia x Chi-Amerifax).
I was at the time really dumb concerning the ramifications of the clubby bloodlines, not so today. Unfortunately, seeing how every cow I bred to have a clubby steer always had a clubby HFR, my herd is pretty much mixed with all the no-no genetics for females. I have had success breeding them carefully -- but every so often I have a wreck (Ie Heat Wave on my Foreplay -- a total disaster from day one -- monkey mouth, spastic pariesis, swing leged, stiffled and the list went on. Had to be destroyed) She did produce a tremendous steer by Heet Seeker earlier -- go figure!
I have seen monkey mouth calves from many different bloodlines. Full Flush, De Bull, Cunia, Powerplant, Cowboy Cut, Throttle, Who Made Who (Powerplant grandson no less), and some I can't remember for sure. It is out there in big supply, we just need to be carefull as to what we use on who -- I know my cows, but am somewhat at the mercy of the publicist when it comes to the bulls!!!! I think you can get my drift.
Hopefully every one who has been at this a while will be able to lessen the losses associated with it -- most of them are just that -- a total loss. I don'tknow about any one else, but I hate having to go out and shoot one after going thru a whole year of waiting and feeding and what have you -- just to get a complete cripple. It is a sad deal for sure!
Take care every one -- hope your day is going well!
Terry
Your inputs in the workings of genetics are impressive and much appreciated. When I talk cows, I use good old Cowboy language, it's much esier to read let alone SAY -- hehehehe!!!
When I refference the great Cunia in my earlier post -- I wanted to say more on the lines of him being such a prominent player back in the late 80's and 90's. He was used on every thing that had 4 legs, and worked on most of them. I was not his first generation that had alot of problems, it was when he was crossed heavily with some other blood -- Chi comes to mind as wlel, that th eproblems really started to show. He may have had lots of structure issues himself as I had never seen him in person (No one had), but hispictures sure looked straight shouldered to me.
We had used Chill Factor as I mentioned, Chill Factor is a Cunia son from a Cold Front dam. Cold front is a Cunia son from a Cunia daughter I think, meybe it's the other way around, I can't remember now. Any way he had 3 direct line bred crosses in his first two generations. My Foreplay is of course a grand-daughter of Powerplant on top, but the bottom also had Cunia and Powerplant there as well. She is out of a Whiskas dam (Powerplant x KK New Design) and her mother was a Kodiak ( Cunia x Chi-Amerifax).
I was at the time really dumb concerning the ramifications of the clubby bloodlines, not so today. Unfortunately, seeing how every cow I bred to have a clubby steer always had a clubby HFR, my herd is pretty much mixed with all the no-no genetics for females. I have had success breeding them carefully -- but every so often I have a wreck (Ie Heat Wave on my Foreplay -- a total disaster from day one -- monkey mouth, spastic pariesis, swing leged, stiffled and the list went on. Had to be destroyed) She did produce a tremendous steer by Heet Seeker earlier -- go figure!
I have seen monkey mouth calves from many different bloodlines. Full Flush, De Bull, Cunia, Powerplant, Cowboy Cut, Throttle, Who Made Who (Powerplant grandson no less), and some I can't remember for sure. It is out there in big supply, we just need to be carefull as to what we use on who -- I know my cows, but am somewhat at the mercy of the publicist when it comes to the bulls!!!! I think you can get my drift.
Hopefully every one who has been at this a while will be able to lessen the losses associated with it -- most of them are just that -- a total loss. I don'tknow about any one else, but I hate having to go out and shoot one after going thru a whole year of waiting and feeding and what have you -- just to get a complete cripple. It is a sad deal for sure!
Take care every one -- hope your day is going well!
Terry
Telos
Well-known member
Cowboy, I have always appreciated your knowledge and thoughts, but I think that was some of your best writing to date. It really hit a nerve!
))
knabe
Well-known member
cowboy,
i think part of the problem with maines is simply numbers. they just haven't gone through enough rounds of heavy culling and test crosses. some people are doing this, including the PHA people. the problem seems to be the conundrum of how do i make money now and later. i could be wrong, but maines seem to be more of a female breed, so to make money now, you need to sell high dollar ones to finance your operation, particlulary if you aren't integrated and a farmer as well or some other income. this puts pressure on one to not cull heavily enough, and then you put what should be culled into the general population and the price they sold at gets to be part of her value, kinda like the housing crisis and the stock market today. so if you cull heavily, you need numbers and an orgainzed line breeding program. there are a few on this site that are excellent at it. there are some people on this site who think they have something and are doing an excellent job, but don't have enough numbers to be really powerful, so they need to be really careful, and they are. reviewing pedigrees for the last 3 months, there are some interesting trends. some breeders breed based on phenotype only and not pedigree. they find an outcross and incoporate it. this seems to work well. others stack cows that have something they are after, then they incorporate a cow that has what the first cow was missing. i have identified about 5 cows that seem really interesting, and i just found one more the other day, and looking at pictures of her offspring over 4 to 5 generations, it's pretty impressive to see a change, even in one trait or design of a specific point.
today, everyone is after the rarest phenotype, and they know what it is, it just seems that something seems to always come along with it too. there is pressure to either get in and get out, or protect your repuation for the long haul by not letting too many train wrecks out. i am really impressed by what was offered in the commercial offering of maines from sek. there are a couple of bulls in there based on pedigree are extremely interesting and no doubt will be a great source of hybrid vigor for commercial guys. in summary, if that's possible, breeding seems like a pendulum, you need a changer to change, otherwise you go to slow, so it's like at first it was swinging a lot, and it's hard for people, especially me, to see these subtle differences. i am so keyed in on a phenotype that i don't see other things. however along the way i am learning more each day. from maines, i see at least two people who are being exceptionally creative, one with fullbloods, one with shorthorns. the pendulum is what creates bulls to go out of favor fast, and in one way that's good, because it leaves them for breeders who can be more refined and aggressive cullers. the thing i like the best about cattle, is that it seems affordable for hobbyists like myself to manuever around a little bit and still be able to get a hold of affordable genetics. it doesn't seem necessary to purchase a $60,000 show heifer to make a dent for a product that basically sells itself in my area.
ildeno (decently famous straight chi bull) was accused of being a carrier of mule foot. he was bred to 30 daughters and all were clean. he did have a huge abscess on one of his rear feet, i can't remember which one. didn't seem to bother him that much, he was still honery, walked around looking through his eyebrows, exhaling heavy.
i did a quick check of irish whiskey, and cunia is in there at least 18 times, i didn't go all the way back. this in itself isn't a problem if some test crosses were done along the way, but probably very few were done.
i think part of the problem with maines is simply numbers. they just haven't gone through enough rounds of heavy culling and test crosses. some people are doing this, including the PHA people. the problem seems to be the conundrum of how do i make money now and later. i could be wrong, but maines seem to be more of a female breed, so to make money now, you need to sell high dollar ones to finance your operation, particlulary if you aren't integrated and a farmer as well or some other income. this puts pressure on one to not cull heavily enough, and then you put what should be culled into the general population and the price they sold at gets to be part of her value, kinda like the housing crisis and the stock market today. so if you cull heavily, you need numbers and an orgainzed line breeding program. there are a few on this site that are excellent at it. there are some people on this site who think they have something and are doing an excellent job, but don't have enough numbers to be really powerful, so they need to be really careful, and they are. reviewing pedigrees for the last 3 months, there are some interesting trends. some breeders breed based on phenotype only and not pedigree. they find an outcross and incoporate it. this seems to work well. others stack cows that have something they are after, then they incorporate a cow that has what the first cow was missing. i have identified about 5 cows that seem really interesting, and i just found one more the other day, and looking at pictures of her offspring over 4 to 5 generations, it's pretty impressive to see a change, even in one trait or design of a specific point.
today, everyone is after the rarest phenotype, and they know what it is, it just seems that something seems to always come along with it too. there is pressure to either get in and get out, or protect your repuation for the long haul by not letting too many train wrecks out. i am really impressed by what was offered in the commercial offering of maines from sek. there are a couple of bulls in there based on pedigree are extremely interesting and no doubt will be a great source of hybrid vigor for commercial guys. in summary, if that's possible, breeding seems like a pendulum, you need a changer to change, otherwise you go to slow, so it's like at first it was swinging a lot, and it's hard for people, especially me, to see these subtle differences. i am so keyed in on a phenotype that i don't see other things. however along the way i am learning more each day. from maines, i see at least two people who are being exceptionally creative, one with fullbloods, one with shorthorns. the pendulum is what creates bulls to go out of favor fast, and in one way that's good, because it leaves them for breeders who can be more refined and aggressive cullers. the thing i like the best about cattle, is that it seems affordable for hobbyists like myself to manuever around a little bit and still be able to get a hold of affordable genetics. it doesn't seem necessary to purchase a $60,000 show heifer to make a dent for a product that basically sells itself in my area.
ildeno (decently famous straight chi bull) was accused of being a carrier of mule foot. he was bred to 30 daughters and all were clean. he did have a huge abscess on one of his rear feet, i can't remember which one. didn't seem to bother him that much, he was still honery, walked around looking through his eyebrows, exhaling heavy.
i did a quick check of irish whiskey, and cunia is in there at least 18 times, i didn't go all the way back. this in itself isn't a problem if some test crosses were done along the way, but probably very few were done.
