New Argument....

[Show Heifer]

oh farwest.....too bad we can't be debating this over a beverage!!! How much fun could we have??!!!

Just heard that Ford has declined any money or any "line of credit". Totally withdrew from the talks.  Darn....I was hoping to buy a cheap NEW truck (something I have never done before!!)

I honestly don't know what is the "right" thing to do.....heck, I don't even know what is "fair" anymore.
All I know if this was the livestock industry it would have been a page one headline for one day while everyone took turns laughing and backstabbing the industry that not only feeds them but employs way more people than the auto industy.

 

[knabe]

When Stahl points out that Frank is then talking about welfare, he responds, "Yeah, I’m for welfare. You’re not? Are you for letting people starve?"

why should anyone have to work?  i mean lets cut to the chase.

 

[GONEWEST]

.the steel industry was competing against china..

Lets talk argue about the steel industry, too. I have ZERO experiece there. Was never VP of a steel company, nothing

The steel industry couldn't compete because they couldn't use the old steel mills that were built in the 20's and 30's to produce steel as efficiently as the new mills built around the world. The huge profits they made from the 40's on went into managements pockets instead of infrastructure and new facilities. Thats why they can't compete. If you think that paying too many good wages was their problem, you're just misinformed. They did have alot of legacy problems, but that was because of the way they invested their profits. When they signed those contracts agreeing to those legacy issues they thought they would be just fine. To me they have the same problem as the other companies that are in trouble. Poor, greedy management. The first of these "bailouts" was done by Bush for the steel industry a couiple months before the presidential election in 2004. Bush needed the electoral votes from OH and PA the steel mill states. So he placed a tarriff on raw steel coming into this country. But not steel parts that came in. The net effect was to make raw steel  prices high and force companies here who made steel parts out of business. The steel companies were so inefficient they couldn't produce enough for except for big companies so it never hurt their sales, just the smaller companies who were buying from them. The steel coming into the country was so high the parts couldn't be made cheaply enough to compete with imported parts. But Bush got his votes, kept MOST of the steel workers employed. That was the first bail out.


all that means is there is an oversupply of cars.  there's an oversupply of manufacturing capacity as well

No it doesn't Knabe, all it means is that the people who want to buy them can't get loans to buy them with because their wages aren't high enough.

And it doesn't mean that there is an oversupply of manufacturing capacity. It means that there is an oversupply of goods being manufactured elsewhere else being brought into this country. It's called a trade deficit. Why is that so hard to understand?

The view that the "free market" wiil take care of everything in time is Horse Hockey. Because the market isn't "free. " It has all kinds of government imposed forces on the market that makes it not a "free market."

 

[JbarL]

gw....your headed in the right direction...but no steel company ( companies) have "ever" been  " bailed out"..."terrifs on foriegn steel has been on going for 30 yrs....didnt help any of the steel mills.... they "all closed"....they are gone... they are /were antiquated and unable to keep up with newer epa regualations ect, but mainly just cant compete with subsidized markets.......no one "bailed" them out and helped update there facalities...they are gone...what is it that we manufacture  in this country now?....we dont even make our own underware ...this country has done anything to undermine "organized labor"...and will continue...at any cost......they dont want us to be organized "anything"......large groups of similar thinking organized "anybodies"  scare them.....  the governement wants to be in charge of organized labor....period....do you all really think that there are so many jobs in this county that we need to amensty "illegal immagrants" with a "quest worker visa" to "keep the country going?  or do you believe that the unemployment levels in this country are at near historic level highs?...they cant have it both ways.....i think our intelligence, as well as our patience is soon to be tested....jbarl

 

[knabe]

.the steel industry was competing against china..

Lets talk argue about the steel industry, too. I have ZERO experiece there. Was never VP of a steel company, nothing

The steel industry couldn't compete because they couldn't use the old steel mills that were built in the 20's and 30's to produce steel as efficiently as the new mills built around the world. The huge profits they made from the 40's on went into managements pockets instead of infrastructure and new facilities. Thats why they can't compete. If you think that paying too many good wages was their problem, you're just misinformed. They did have alot of legacy problems, but that was because of the way they invested their profits. When they signed those contracts agreeing to those legacy issues they thought they would be just fine. To me they have the same problem as the other companies that are in trouble. Poor, greedy management. The first of these "bailouts" was done by Bush for the steel industry a couiple months before the presidential election in 2004. Bush needed the electoral votes from OH and PA the steel mill states. So he placed a tarriff on raw steel coming into this country. But not steel parts that came in. The net effect was to make raw steel  prices high and force companies here who made steel parts out of business. The steel companies were so inefficient they couldn't produce enough for except for big companies so it never hurt their sales, just the smaller companies who were buying from them. The steel coming into the country was so high the parts couldn't be made cheaply enough to compete with imported parts. But Bush got his votes, kept MOST of the steel workers employed. That was the first bail out.


all that means is there is an oversupply of cars.  there's an oversupply of manufacturing capacity as well

No it doesn't Knabe, all it means is that the people who want to buy them can't get loans to buy them with because their wages aren't high enough.

And it doesn't mean that there is an oversupply of manufacturing capacity. It means that there is an oversupply of goods being manufactured elsewhere else being brought into this country. It's called a trade deficit. Why is that so hard to understand?

The view that the "free market" wiil take care of everything in time is Horse Hockey. Because the market isn't "free. " It has all kinds of government imposed forces on the market that makes it not a "free market."

hey gone west.  agree with 1st ppg.

2nd one not so much.  no one has a right to have their manufacturing capacity paid for if the product is not in demand.  i haven't purchased an american car since a used 71 chevelle (which by the way got 18mpg) because they suck.  i could list the reasons, but in the interest of space...  people purchased foreign labels made in america. 

remove the government imposed forces.  you hit the problem on the head.  but know one will, so the ponzi scheme continues.

finally, the new ford 500 or whatever it is looks, drives decent, but i think it's essentially a volvo, and the new malibu looks nice too.  the other thing, i REALLY can't stand front wheel drive.  that is a major reason i won't purchase an american car.  i purchased my hybrid frontwheel drive honda because it is purpose built for mileage and safety, something americans don't yet offer.  my wife purchased a 2002 330i bmw.  rear wheel drive, safe, powerful, 32 mpg, resale value.  americans don't do that.  to me, that's why american sales have not been getting my dollar.  i do by american trucks.  looking to buy another as my 93 dakota is a little tired and borrowing the neighbors 250 ford is getting annoying.

nothing wrong with purchasing a 13,000 car,  why does everyone need an escalade.  obviously lots of price points in between.  but for some reason, everyone is devoting too much of their money on too expensive of a car and then put dobs on them immediately and then use their CC for christmas presents till the loan is paid off, and then they repeat because the vehicle won't last because all the plastic is falling off.

otherwise good points GONEWEST.

 

[JbarL]

.the steel industry was competing against china..

. Poor, greedy management. The first of these "bailouts" was done by Bush for the steel industry a couiple months before the presidential election in 2004. Bush needed the electoral votes from OH and PA the steel mill states. So he placed a tarriff on raw steel coming into this country. But not steel parts that came in. The net effect was to make raw steel  prices high and force companies here who made steel parts out of business. The steel companies were so inefficient they couldn't produce enough for except for big companies so it never hurt their sales, just the smaller companies who were buying from them. The steel coming into the country was so high the parts couldn't be made cheaply enough to compete with imported parts. But Bush got his votes, kept MOST of the steel workers employed. That was the first bail out.

thats not a bail out...a bailout is taxpayer financed.... ....that was  simply ..as you said....a campain tactic by bush for votes....
no government sponsored bailout package has ever been exercised in the united states for the steel industry...ever
and now we dont make our own steel any more
and soon we wont make cars anymore either.
the uaw didnt ask for this bail out package...the executives for the stockholders did.
bankruptcy will solve that...and unfortunatly i am for letting them fail that way ..it is the only way to make sure the executives and the stockholders are the ones who are responsible for the companies demise, and the finical losses are shared by them and not the taxpayers......if all the  uaw members lose there job, so be it...i hate to say that...but unfortunatly " they dont even have a dog in this fight" ....there is no problems  between  the uaw and the company, or  the uaw members and there national labor board???.....every industry or emplyment sector of this county is on the edge....what say for a stimulus package we do away with the lottery??...that would put money back in the econoomy woudnt it...like millions and millions of consumer dollars avaliable for " the system"??...oh..but wait.... how much unemployment would that create...oh no...75000 lottery jobs will be  lost across the county...the econlmy cant take it....how many jobs will be lost if we only have one health payment plan system......oh no.....now every hospital wont need 20 people to sort out all the different companies/plans/deducatble/co pay dispersment routing... that could be 200000 people across the united states that will be out of work...oh no ..the econlmy cant survive that...i think the effected uaw union workers will have a better shot at future employment in the transportation production industry than any of the executives / managers and stockholders involed with this will....let the chips fall where they may,  theres plenty more to come to everones town as it applies to labor....when we call it labor..it sounds nasty and unpopular to some...when we just call it a job.. we seem to think of it a different light......jbarl

 

[knabe]

why is it so hard for health care for multiple payers.

i can pay at walmart with several different methods including cash.

isn't single payer just a blue herring?

with one payer, the payer, you are at their mercy with no bargaining strength on your side for service.

 

[JbarL]

why is it so hard for health care for multiple payers.

i can pay at walmart with several different methods including cash.

isn't single payer just a blue herring?

with one payer, the payer, you are at their mercy with no bargaining strength on your side for service.

how many pays does a one payer pay ? 

once for your monthly premium..( or four times for weekly pay period withdrawls )...
once for the office visit minimum
once for the deductable amount left per year
once again for  any deductable that may be left on your yearly "obligation" if you go again ( another minimun office call payola)
once for any remaining balances of the 80% not coverd for treatment or procedure
once for your perscription balance  or copay of the cost of your medicine at walmart...( cash or check)
and once to buy a stamp to put on next months premium bill

and now youve succesfully had a hemroid removed.    all yours...bought and paid for......exclusivelly by the one payer system...i wonder if that helps our credit scores  ?    jbarl

 

[knabe]

why is it so hard for health care for multiple payers.

i can pay at walmart with several different methods including cash.

isn't single payer just a blue herring?

with one payer, the payer, you are at their mercy with no bargaining strength on your side for service.

how many pays does a one payer pay ? 

once for your monthly premium..( or four times for weekly pay period withdrawls )...
once for the office visit minimum
once for the deductable amount left per year
once again for  any deductable that may be left on your yearly "obligation" if you go again ( another minimun office call payola)
once for any remaining balances of the 80% not coverd for treatment or procedure
once for your perscription balance  or copay of the cost of your medicine at walmart...( cash or check)
and once to buy a stamp to put on next months premium bill

and now youve succesfully had a hemroid removed.    all yours...bought and paid for......exclusivelly by the one payer system...i wonder if that helps our credit scores  ?    jbarl

who needs a credit score with no competition?

tee hee.  dang you jbarl, your're the best.

 

[JbarL]

why is it so hard for health care for multiple payers.

i can pay at walmart with several different methods including cash.

isn't single payer just a blue herring?

with one payer, the payer, you are at their mercy with no bargaining strength on your side for service.

how many pays does a one payer pay ? 

once for your monthly premium..( or four times for weekly pay period withdrawls )...
once for the office visit minimum
once for the deductable amount left per year
once again for  any deductable that may be left on your yearly "obligation" if you go again ( another minimun office call payola)
once for any remaining balances of the 80% not coverd for treatment or procedure
once for your perscription balance  or copay of the cost of your medicine at walmart...( cash or check)
and once to buy a stamp to put on next months premium bill

and now youve succesfully had a hemroid removed.    all yours...bought and paid for......exclusivelly by the one payer system...i wonder if that helps our credit scores  ?    jbarl

who needs a credit score with no competition?

tee hee.  dang you jbarl, your're the best.

i look forward to someday ....havn' a sit  on a  porch with ya .... and maybe an afternoon backgammon session.. 8)..
sure enjoy you company knabe. ...jbarl