The board seems a little slow right now, blame it on summe I guess. I have heard a few rumors that clones may be banned from some shows. I don't know if this is a fact, or is even being discussed for that matter, but I would be interested in all of your thoughts on this. My belief is that showing the clone of a great steer takes much of the challenge out of raising one. Just my thought, so what do you all think? Good or bad?
NEW TOPIC-Maybe?
- Thread starter olsun
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simtal
Well-known member
I think if you ban showing clones then you might as well ban full sibs. The odds of getting a good looking clone are low. Many of these bulls are cloned in litters and have 5-6 wrecks you dont see promoted.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
I think it's silly to show a clone.
firesweepranch
Well-known member
I agree, it takes some of the surprise out of it. A clone is an exact duplicate of the donor, so the only variation from the donor would be caused by environmental factors (recip dam, feed, weather ). However, each judge is different and just because your donor did well last year does not mean the clone will do just as good. I think people are spending to much time and money cloning to get a winning steer, but cloning a great female or bull is a great idea.
Just my two cents.....
Just my two cents.....
firesweepranch said:
I see no problem with showing clones, we have already spent countless hours and dollars proving that there are no abnormalities in how long they will breed on and slaughter. And while there are no differences in the DNA which is contained in the embryo there are significant differences in the mitochondrial DNA which is donated to the equation by the carrying dam. (metabolism) So to say a clone is genetically identical is technically wrong. Further more it does not take away from the surprises, things will go wrong along the way. Have you ever noticed that some people just have better stockmanship than others and seem to get along no matter what animal they have. It doesn’t matter if they find the animal by following a cow family, following a sire combination, randomly find the calf in a pasture some where knowing very little about its ancestry, or the clone of an animal they know everything about. They start with something pretty good and know how to make it the best that animal can be. Some people just have the never quenched thirst for excellence, the experience to know what to do, and the drive to win. That is what these Junior projects are supposed to be about and as long as the rules are followed let the junior programs work.
ai er
Well-known member
ustacould said:
Very well put.
Show Heifer
Well-known member
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I don't agree with clones on several levels.... I just think that if you do your job as a breeder that each generation should be better, therefore a clone is "old news of yesterday".
I have also read on here that clones are NOT exact duplicates due to the "donor egg" has some left over DNA, so therefore, not EXACTLY the same as the orginal. (Maybe someone can explain that....)
ustacould - I just got back from a junior show at a local fair.... I agree with you that the JUNIORS projects should be about the junior stiving for excellence. The only problem was, I saw 1 junior for every 9 parents doing the JUNIORS work.
The other juniors were drinking pop sitting on the show box.
And like dusty said, short of having a DNA bank that has DNA on file from every single animal shown, it would hard to police. Heck, they can't stop the obvious cheating that happens in plain sight, how are they going to police something you can't see?
I have also read on here that clones are NOT exact duplicates due to the "donor egg" has some left over DNA, so therefore, not EXACTLY the same as the orginal. (Maybe someone can explain that....)
ustacould - I just got back from a junior show at a local fair.... I agree with you that the JUNIORS projects should be about the junior stiving for excellence. The only problem was, I saw 1 junior for every 9 parents doing the JUNIORS work.
The other juniors were drinking pop sitting on the show box.
And like dusty said, short of having a DNA bank that has DNA on file from every single animal shown, it would hard to police. Heck, they can't stop the obvious cheating that happens in plain sight, how are they going to police something you can't see?
knabe
Well-known member
Show Heifer said:
what is better? what is wrong with maintenance. seems to me that is more difficult than creating a supposed great one which is folly, otherwise we would have test tube prime cuts.
simtal
Well-known member
really all this boils down to is money-- the haves and have nots
Clones aren't fair? What about flushing? It takes alot of money too.
The arugument of "lets socialize the industry--for the kids" doesn't teach the kids anything. Adversity is good for the kids. Sure getting beat sucks, we've all been there, but you learn WAY more from losing that winning. The kids that win, have money, and don't do any of the work, have already lost.
Clones aren't fair? What about flushing? It takes alot of money too.
The arugument of "lets socialize the industry--for the kids" doesn't teach the kids anything. Adversity is good for the kids. Sure getting beat sucks, we've all been there, but you learn WAY more from losing that winning. The kids that win, have money, and don't do any of the work, have already lost.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
How exactly do you improve on the next generation when you castrate a calf?
Show Steaks
Well-known member
I say clones are fair, look at how many heatwaves there is and none of them look like the orginial
I think it would be interesting to see how many train wrecks there is out of those high dollar clones
I think it would be interesting to see how many train wrecks there is out of those high dollar clones
LostFarmer
Well-known member
Friend of mine raises some darn nice club calves. He has sent them to shows all over and the calves have done a fair amount of winning. His kids get calves out of the second and 3rd draft of calves. Like he says can't afford to keep a steer that will bring 2-6 times feeder market. His kids consistently place well. Not always winning but usually in the final drive. Being our first year with fat calves he told my boys. Take a pair of rice root brushes and if they are worn out by fair then you will be a winner. Didn't understand what he meant but now I do. If the kid is getting up and walking, rinsing, and brushing the cattle then they will be winners no matter what. They just might win it all but either way they are winners.
As to the clones issue. If someone wants to spend the time and money to clone a steer to try and win more power to them. If they want to breed embryos in mass to find a winner, it is great economy stimulus. If they want to build an cool box and all that goes with it who am I to complain? If all you want is a buckle then log onto Montana Silversmith and buy a buckle.
Buy or breed a good calf and then feed and groom him into a great one. The calf may or not win his class but a winner was made that wasn't the calf.
Lostfarmer AKA dad
As to the clones issue. If someone wants to spend the time and money to clone a steer to try and win more power to them. If they want to breed embryos in mass to find a winner, it is great economy stimulus. If they want to build an cool box and all that goes with it who am I to complain? If all you want is a buckle then log onto Montana Silversmith and buy a buckle.
Buy or breed a good calf and then feed and groom him into a great one. The calf may or not win his class but a winner was made that wasn't the calf.
Lostfarmer AKA dad
LostFarmer
Well-known member
Sharper knives would help most breeding programs.
aj
Well-known member
In theory the next generation should always be better. But I sometimes question this line of thought. Seems like us breeders tend to chase fads and single trait selection thus the next generation might not be better. The end product "good cattle" may change 10 years from now. I think fuel costs and protein costs will sky rocket. 6 dollar corn could dictate what a good calf might be whereas 3 dollar corn may or may not call for a different type of calf. Will there be a significant select/choice price spread difference in fat cat cattle to encourage good marbling cattle or will the supermarket type beef not really need the carcass quality. The economy will be a huge factor in what type of beef will be best. If you are a gloom and doomer and expect economic stagnation I think beef could be in trouble. If ypu are a strict epd guy and you are selecting for say a balanced 6 traits a extra year would give you more time to use selection pressure and cull cattle accordingly. I'm not sure there are lines of "good cattle". Only lines of cattle that work under certain economic or enviromental conditions.
farmboy
Well-known member
frostback said:
Lots of polygamists in that county eh?
[/quote]
thats what i thought when i read that...
aj
Well-known member
Speaking of new topic.....could you clone a wooly mammouth if you found one with a mummified ear?(lord forgive me...I just spent 6 days helping a bunch of KU grad students excavate site 106 at Kanorado). Found a debitage flake in the 10,500-11,000 bp soil level. The one nights round table discussion 9 pitchers there was a discusion about developing "pocket mammoths" through a cloning process. And you thought the goat project was interesting.....wait till this baby takes off.
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