OK I LIED!

[DL]

Well I was out on this beautiful night checking fence on the horse, watching cows, bouncing babies, hearing owls and cranes just really happy to be just doing that (what a little sun will do eh?) and I was thinking about all sorts of things including the call I got just before chores from my friend who just delivered her first PHA calf by C- section under general anesthesia - and It occurred to me ya know - I do care - I care if people breed carriers - I especially care if people breed carriers to carriers and I really especially care if people are dishonest. But while we can all agree to disagree and to make our own breeding choices etc this is my breed and I think breeding carrier animals is bad for my breed.

Now since DLD, and chambero, and Joe Boy and Deep and others TNTC (that is microbiology talk for too numerous to count) have provided me with insights I hadn't previously had  - I think I need some now.  I understand the half my herd is carriers and I can't dump them all without going bankrupt - that makes perfect sense. I understand that the TH phenotype is what the ring wants, but I don't know what PHA adds to the show animal. Give me (please) reasons why this is a good idea. Tell me why  breeding carriers is good for the breed. Tell me why you think you have to use carriers. If we ignore (for the moment) the steer deal and the show ring what does breeding carriers do for us?  I don't get it - as they said in a distant land "HELP ME RHONDA, help help me Rhonda "  (do you know who sang that??)

I guess I just don't get it (maybe it is sun poisoning  - so much sun after decades of gray can affect the brain!

thanks and GO SABRES! (cow)
DL

PS - I do realize that some people think hockey is a stupid, silly, violent, goofy game - grown men hitting a little frozen black flat circle while on ice skates ....but it's ok! ;D ;D ;D

 

[farmboy]

THE BEETLES AND HOCKEY IS ALRIGHT BY MY BOOK O0

 

[deep]

DL you didn't lie.  It would be crazy for a doctor of animal medicine not to care.  You don't want to see a dead calf and you don't want to see a cow down.  It is part of you, just like whatever color your hair is, it's you.  This does not mean anyone else cares less though.  Nor do I want to sound like I'm implying that a person has to be a DVM to be passionate about it either.  

With our own situation, it is alot about economics.  As I mentioned earlier, we cannot afford to rid of the good cattle we have raised.  Also, as I have mentioned earlier, we use our PHAC bull selectively.  He can't breed everything, not that we'd want him to anyway.  We are not PB Maine breeders, and I don't really know if that makes much difference or not.  Maybe that makes more options in some situations, someone else could elaborate on that more than I.  

We're not in the show ring regularly by any means, but when we are it's going to be with something competitive, regardless of whether it's a Chi, Chimaine, Simmangus.  And it means all the more when you are the person that bred and raised the animal.

 

 

[frostback]

I think the band was the Beach Boys.                                                                              

 

[DLD]

DL, I don't think you lied either. I understand where you're coming from, I really do. Since we all understand each other on females we already own, I'm not going to get into that anymore. When it comes to using carrier bulls, well...I've defended it, said I would still do it in the right situation, and I still believe I would... but when it comes down to it, I haven't bred a single cow to a known or suspected PHA or TH carrier since I've known about it, and don't really plan to either. The one scenario I can picture where I would is if I had a particular cow (that's known to be clean) that had already produced multiple high quality, high dollar steer prospects out of a carrier bull - yes, I would breed, or even flush her to that carrier bull again.

Believe it or not, I'm with you on the idea that fatal genetic defects shouldn't have a place anywhere, and certainly not in seedstock production, but then again I think we have to realize that sheer economics is not going to allow that to happen immediately... I know it won't allow me to  get rid of all of mine right now.. Too many people have too much invested. We all know that if the AMAA and the ASA started to demand a clean TH and PHA test before papers were ever issued, it would weed out a lot of carriers, but it would prob'ly also lead to alot of falsely registered cattle, and wouldn't that just put the progress being made that much further behind?I know that it's a scarey thing to just have to trust everyone to do the right thing, but right now it looks to me like it's the best we can do. It's important to try and keep everyone aware and informed, and I certainly admire all  that you (and many others - you know who you are) have done, and continue to do on that front.

 

[ELBEE]

On an earlier thread I commented on supply and demand taking care of defects over a period of time. Example; In the last few months I've not hardly been able to sell a breeding animal without a genetic test. This from a TH/PHA free herd. The only ones willing to buy without testing are customers who have been with me a long time, and understand my breeding program. I believe there is a lot of distrust out there.

 

[farmboy]

WAIT, YES IT WAS THE BEACH BOYS, SORRY ???

 

[red]

Of course you care DL, you've seen too much not too!
I think deep down everyone cares. Deep cares or she would be promoting the bull as a carrier. Gypsy cares because she has had dead calves & cows. Jill cares because she is serving a market need but wants repeat customers. Elbee cares because even though he knows he has a clean herd, he has to test because it's what his customers want. I think we all care but just show it differently.
DL, you've taken many a hard hit for your beliefs & the message you've brought. Must be some interest though from the response in people here!

Red

 

[chambero]

I think within a year or two at most you won't be seeing any PHA-carrier bulls promoted.  There isn't really any positive link at all that I've seen between carriers and show ring success.  As quick as the big boys that promote bulls can get replacements through the pipeline that are clean the carriers will quickly fade into memory - I hope.

TH maybe not as quickly because of the steer deal, but I suspect it will too as quick as a few clean bulls emerge that can compete with Heat Wave's progeny. 

And DL I think I've told you before, but I really appreciate your help about this time last year when we were needing to buy herd bulls and I was trying to hard to dodge the affected lines with very little information to go on.  Your caring helped us a  bunch.

 

[Jill]

Ok, here goes, I thought you were lying from the beginning.  There is no one that puts the kind of time, effot and passion into a subject that can honestly say they just don't care, and we all deeply appreciate you for that fact.  I don't want you to think I take carriers lightly, because I don't,  I don't think there is a reason at this point to ever have a new bull come on the scene that is a carrier, and I will not use one.  My basic breeding program is not really that different than several of you on the board. My purebred business is just that, my cows are all clean with the exception of a little fall heifer I just purchased ( she had excellent genetics and I am hoping to get some clean daughters out of her).  I have never used a carrier and don't intend to start now, they have nothing to offer the purebred business and will in fact ruin the purebred business commercial acceptance if breeders don't get a handle on this VERY quickly. 

I know you don't want to hear about the show side, but that is a very big part of the Maine-Anjou/Shorthorn business.  Our steery, clubby business is all done in our flush/embryo program and like it or not, it all comes down to economics. I will not stop using just because I now know the status, until someone comes up with an alternative to Heat Wave or until the judges stop picking them and my customers stop wanting them, I will continue to use him, he is the only carrier I have ever used TH or PHA.  We are very small producers, it would take 40 market calves to bring the price of our top selling steer last year, that may make me greedy, and if that is your opinion, so be it, I have a family to support, and this is how I choose to do it.

I think the saying goes "but for the grace of God go I" we got lucky, we have never had a calf with the TH or PHA defect simply because of the genetics we chose, and part of that is just because the PHA genetics were generally out of our price range, but my heart goes out to each of you that has had one.  This will work it's self out, but I am afraid it will probably take some time.

Sorry to be so long winded,
Jill

 

[Jill]

Opps, I forgot we did flush to Vegas after he 1st came out.

 

[red]

Yes, but if I'm reading that correctly, you didn't know he was a carrier when you flushed. It's like us, we used Gold Club in a flush before we had ever heard of PHA.
Really liked your comments Jill. Thanks!

Red

 

[Gypsy]

I really liked your comments too!  You hit everything just about right (in my opinion).  ESPECIALLY the part about "they have nothing to offer the purebred business and will in fact ruin the purebred business commercial acceptance if breeders don't get a handle on this VERY quickly."    I think that is already happening.   

 

[OH Breeder]

[i]Now since DLD, and chambero, and Joe Boy and Deep and others TNTC (that is microbiology talk for too numerous to count) have provided me with insights I hadn't previously had  - I think I need some now.  I understand the half my herd is carriers and I can't dump them all without going bankrupt - that makes perfect sense. I understand that the TH phenotype is what the ring wants, but I don't know what PHA adds to the show animal. Give me (please) reasons why this is a good idea. Tell me why  breeding carriers is good for the breed. Tell me why you think you have to use carriers. If we ignore (for the moment) the steer deal and the show ring what does breeding carriers do for us? ....[/i]

Okay this is my humble opinion. I don't think that TH and PH carriers are the preferred phenotype and create a desireable trait because, if that were true, how about SOnny, Trump, Cunia, Habenero etc. I think that some desireable animals with a desirable appearing phenotype were consistently bred and selected, there by propagating the defect. The defect did not create these desireable traits, our choice in using carrier genetics created desireable cattle who just happen to carry a lethal defect.

 

[red]

OH b, I bow down to you!(clapping)Actually I have to agree w/ you wholeheartly! Just too many great ones that aren't carriers. i think there might be certain traits that you find in some but as a whole, not pheontypically superior!

Red

 

[DL]

WOW!! And in red highlight too - you are an awesome dude! Now if you can name the bull you will be my hero for the month!

I have 2 additional tidbits

Tidbit one: I spoke with a vet today who told me that he had delivered by C-section several "monsters" in the mid to late 1980's that in retrospect were PHA

Tidbit 2: When looking for a clean pedigree - if the cow is sired by Fred (known clean) out of a Mike daughter (Mike is clean) - DO NOT ASSUME the cow is clean - there is a female that was bred to Mike and we know nothing about her....a friend has an $1100 vet bill (not from me  ;D) to prove that point....

thanks to all for the thoughtful comments...

 

[OH Breeder]

OH b, I bow down to you!(clapping)Actually I have to agree w/ you wholeheartly! Just too many great ones that aren't carriers. i think there might be certain traits that you find in some but as a whole, not pheontypically superior!

Red

No need. Ain't that bright. Just seems to make sense. Believe me there are alot of folks on here way smarter than me. But I think we are the few that believe this theory. You should take credit for you due diligence in spreading the word. All the crap that has been thrown at you and you just keep going. .....just like someone else we know....

 

[Telos]

DL, believe I know where you're coming from on this. I've been accused and have even accused myself of talking out of both sides of my mouth, sometimes at the same time. I've thought constantly of what could be the positives of this defect and try to way them out against all the negative aspects. The only positive thing a PHA  carriers could offer is PHA free offspring. These free offspring, would or could have tremendous value IMO.

...But with all this said, we have the reputation of a breed of cattle, Maine-Anjou, at stake and feel in order for this breed to prosper, this gene needs to be eliminated from the gene pool. Commercial operators will not want to buy Maine bulls if we allow this gene to linger much longer. These operators in the commercial segment are
really the" bread and butter" of any registered purebred and now, some call themselves, a registered hybrid or composite operation. Urgency, really should be of utmost concern, because the longer this defect is around the more severe the reputation becomes. The Maine-Anjou breed like any other registered breed is only as strong as the breeders who breed them and also the elected officers that lead them.

Rhonda has helped me with all my thoughts on this matter, but still can't seem to get her out of my heart.

 

[DL]

Yes it is a sticky wicket - thanks guys. Love the Bunny - OH Breeder - I am sure there are those who would like to pull my batteries, but they just keep goin' and goin' !!

Telos, remember it is a far far better thing to have Rhonda than evil in your heart!  ;D (apology to ol' Chuck Dickens)

 

[aj]

Discussion from 2007. Kinda interesting how TH and PHA have been handled over 16 years or whatever.