Old Shorthorn Blood

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stumpy

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May 1, 2007
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293
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Great Bend, KS
For all of you Native shorthorn folks.....
We had an own daughter of TPS Coronet Leader 21st born a couple of days ago. I am happy to be looking at a message board where I am not the only "old pedigree geek". I will be sure to get a picture as soon a things let up caving a little.Take care all!
 

OH Breeder

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Feb 14, 2007
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Ada, Ohio
(welcome)

Glad to have you aboard. Looking forward to the pictures. What is on the momma's side?
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
Great to have you aboard Stumpy! I have found that we have a wide variety of breeders that like the old or the new. I'also interested in pictures!

Red
 

Davis Shorthorns

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Feb 8, 2008
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Kansas
I am very interested in the old line of shorthorns.  My great grandpa raised shorthorns in southern Kansas in the late 20's through the 60's or so.
 

red

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Jan 20, 2007
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LaRue, Ohio
talk to Justintime or Elbee. Both have some good knowledge of old lines.

Red
 

Telos

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Feb 4, 2007
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Dallas, Texas
Even though I'm not in tune to the old shorthorn lineage, my first really good steer I showed was sired by a Leader 21st son. This was circa 1968.

 

aj

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Jul 5, 2006
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western kansas
Does anyone have a general idea of udders on jpj females yet? Or how about leader 21st or big gene? I personally think that the breed could use a shot of the old genetics. I would like to use jpj but I am sure he's not perfect. :)
 

coyote

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Jun 15, 2007
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499
This is our Leader 9th daughter (Big Gene) . She has lots of capacity and is an easy keeper. Her udder is not perfect.
I think a shot of some of these old sires would benefit most herds by adding easy keeping and smaller birth weights.
We bred her this year to Saskvalley Bonanza, I think the resulting offspring should get fat by just looking at grass :).
 

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shortyjock89

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IL
I like the idea of using some of these older genetics in modern applications, and these kind of cattle do very well on grass and they are really good in their upper 2/3....but...I kind of have a problem with their lower 1/3.  Their udders can get sloppy, and their teats can get long. I'm also not a big fan of their underline in general. I know that the "goosey" front ends aren't useful, but a clean front certainly doesn't hurt a thing.  Now, please understand that I'm not trying to tear down these cattle, and I think that they do have a place, but if we bring back too many of these old lines, we'll figure out why the generations before us(my grandfather in my case) started to breed away from this sort of animal.  A mix of old and new could create a very easy keeping cow that could still produce very marketable calves.
 

knabe

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Feb 7, 2007
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Hollister, CA
maybe i'm misinterpreting the underline here, but do you also mean the brisket?  this cow has some, would you just like to see it gone?

what about some specific brisket comments.

was part of the reason they bred away from this type of animal was the change to high input feeding and carcass portion demands?  to change udders, it seems to take more time than to change any epd.
 

aj

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western kansas
Fleshing ability(waste) can be the same thing you are right. However with 7 dollar corn I don't know.I would sure hate to see us as the shorthorn breed loose the 2% of the commercial market we now dominate ;D
 

shortyjock89

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Knabe- I kind of had a bad time saying what I mean.  I don't really like how cattle of this sort of breeding have more of a V-shaped underline..that's just a personal preference I guess.  I don't mind a bit of brisket, a little bit of one goes along with easy fleshing cattle, and I don't want cows that can't keep themselves in decent condition in a pasture.  Maybe I'm picky about phenotype since I basically don't have a whole lot of use for "commercial" type cattle because I raise cattle for show, but I can still appreciate a good cow.
 

coyote

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OFS I think you are still having a bad time saying what you mean.
You say "I basically don't have a whole lot of use for "commercial" type cattle because I raise cattle for show".
Are we not all raising cattle for the same reason, BEEF, or are some of us raising pets? :)
 

shortyjock89

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You're right...I'm not sure what my problem is today. I'll try again.  In my small, tiny herd of 15 cows, we could either just have cows and breed them to a clean up bull and maybe sell a calf or two every year as a show calf, or we could have cows that will produce show stock, and we AI to many bulls that are used to produce show calves.  Now, even though we breed for show calves, we still want to maintain maternal traits, which is why we DON'T breed to terminal sires, and we don't keep any heifers back in the herd out of terminal sires.  We kind of have a wide range of genetics in our small herd, and I would be glad to discuss them, but I don't want to hi-jack your thread with all of that.  Basically what I'm trying to say is that we are trying to breed heifers that can work in the show ring, and then go ahead and make good cows. 

What I meant when I said that I didn't have much use for a "commercial" cow is that if there are two types of Shorthorns, as many people say there are, I have to lean a bit toward the show end, because a small-time operation like my family's will have a hard time marketing bulls or replacement heifers to a commercial cattleman.  We will have a lot more success selling show heifers to people, whether they are 4-H exhibitors, or someone that wants a heifer that will compete at a higher level.

I have a feeling that this still doesn't convey what I'm trying to say, but oh well...that 2nd round of exams for the semester will kind of fry your brain....
 

sjcattleco

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Apr 4, 2007
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Southeast Ohio
Olson

I think I know what point you are trying to make but you can't have your cake and eat it too in the shorthorn world that we currently live in.... What the shorthorn breed needs to do is CHANGE  what is winning in the show ring to a beast that is functional in the real world and not what we have now! Our breed is in trouble no matter what anyone thinks... What scares me the most is what people are selling and advertising for bulls...Males are the barometer of what a breed has to offer!!!!! .Masculine,  thick, early maturing , structurally correct  bulls are almost impossible to find.... Breeders think we need and continue to use  these narrow fronted long necked steery looking bulls and they still can't figure out why the calving ease on shorthorn bulls sucks!!! Well its because feminine bulls produce crappy daughters and they are hard calving..... Masculine bulls are just the opposite.... The best thing that could happen to the shorthorn breed is ethanol and linear measurement!!!!    Look at the old genetics.... look at what the bulls are like in Argentina or New Zealand.  These are functional / profitable cattle that are balanced,  thick and get fat on fresh air and sunshine...  You mentioned that you are a small breeder  so you are looking for the niche market.. FINE.. problem is that the cattle that  currently fills that niche are  really the wrong kind ..... Not your fault just the facts....If a more commercial type animal filled that niche you and everyone else would raise that kind.... what the breed needs to do is make a conscience effort to pick REAL cattlemen as judges that will pick that certain "type" of animal not pick animals based on frame, hair, or amount of  bone, " TH carriers"  .......  The Angus breed figured this out a long time ago  A big Angus show is a contest to find the perfect average... ..... Unfortunatly the shorthorn breed  shows are still won by "extreme" type animals... They are too big... too fat.... too much hair.. I saw an big fancy ad in the SC couple of years ago where the owners of this show heifer bragged that she weighed 1600+. Only and idiot would have admitted to that in print!!!  If breeders would produce animals that were the same frame as the Angus but kept the thickness and squareness that good shorthorns possess our cattle would be so good the entire industry would have to take notice!!!
 

shortyjock89

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Ok, I know what you're saying.  You're saying that show animals can't be functional.  I know that this is the average, but I'm really really having a hard time believing that my show heifers are making bad cows.  If you were to look at my cows, you would find moderate framed, easy fleshing females. Not saying that they're perfect, but cattle that are phenotypically pleasing in the showring can still make good beef cows.  Look at this heifer and her sire.  She is a May, weighed 640 in the first week of January, and will probably weigh somwhere around 1450 when she's heavy bred, just based on her mother.  These are not the genetics that you will like, as she is out of a full sib to X Ray (no TH in this bull OR the calf though) and she's out of a Sonny cow.  Actual birthweight on the heifer was 81 lbs unassisted and was the cow's 3rd calf. I think she's pretty moderate all the way around and I think she'll make a good cow..but... I'm probably wrong, my cows are probably worthless to anyone that doesn't want show cattle, and I'll never raise a heifer that's going to be a good cow.  That's okay, we don't pull any calves out of our mature cows, and I'm happy with them, I guess that's all that matters.  I just think that it can be done...a show heifer that wins a little bit, and then is a fantastic cow...just have to be picky about your cows I think...but I really don't know anything, I'm only 18, and I'll probably have a different breed within 5 years.

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TJ

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May 15, 2007
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I think that Olson's Shorthorn heifer is a bit of a balance between the 2.  Showy & functional. 

FYI, saying that functional cattle can't win in the showring is a myth! 

My sister beat Maines, Red Angus, etc. to win Grand Champion A.O.B. at the KY State Fair, with a 900 lb., moderate framed, 16 month old Tarentaise heifer.  That same heifer was in 1st place in it's class in the A.O.B. Division (Maine's, Gelbvieh's, etc.) at the NAILE, until the last second when the judge suddenly got cold feet & switched her to 2nd.  The heifer that beat her was later named Res. Grand Champion.  Now, I know that she didn't win that show, but a guy was standing next to us at the beginning of the class & he was rambling on & on & on about how great his daughters Gelbvieh heifer was & how well she had been doing at shows all year... he suddenly dissappeared when my sisters heifer was originally put at the top of the class & his daughters heifer was standing in like 6th or 7th place!!  ;)  Anyway, my sister's heifer may have come in 2nd place, but she beat some pretty good heifers & the A.O.B. division at the NAILE & that isn't exactly a no fit County Fair show.           
 

itk

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May 6, 2007
Messages
556
Location
KS
sjcattleco said:
Olson

I think I know what point you are trying to make but you can't have your cake and eat it too in the shorthorn world that we currently live in.... What the shorthorn breed needs to do is CHANGE  what is winning in the show ring to a beast that is functional in the real world and not what we have now! Our breed is in trouble no matter what anyone thinks... What scares me the most is what people are selling and advertising for bulls...Males are the barometer of what a breed has to offer!!!!! .Masculine,  thick, early maturing , structurally correct  bulls are almost impossible to find.... Breeders think we need and continue to use  these narrow fronted long necked steery looking bulls and they still can't figure out why the calving ease on shorthorn bulls sucks!!! Well its because feminine bulls produce crappy daughters and they are hard calving..... Masculine bulls are just the opposite.... The best thing that could happen to the shorthorn breed is ethanol and linear measurement!!!!    Look at the old genetics.... look at what the bulls are like in Argentina or New Zealand.  These are functional / profitable cattle that are balanced,  thick and get fat on fresh air and sunshine...  You mentioned that you are a small breeder  so you are looking for the niche market.. FINE.. problem is that the cattle that  currently fills that niche are  really the wrong kind ..... Not your fault just the facts....If a more commercial type animal filled that niche you and everyone else would raise that kind.... what the breed needs to do is make a conscience effort to pick REAL cattlemen as judges that will pick that certain "type" of animal not pick animals based on frame, hair, or amount of  bone, " TH carriers"   .......  The Angus breed figured this out a long time ago  A big Angus show is a contest to find the perfect average... ..... Unfortunatly the shorthorn breed  shows are still won by "extreme" type animals... They are too big... too fat.... too much hair.. I saw an big fancy ad in the SC couple of years ago where the owners of this show heifer bragged that she weighed 1600+. Only and idiot would have admitted to that in print!!!   If breeders would produce animals that were the same frame as the Angus but kept the thickness and squareness that good shorthorns possess our cattle would be so good the entire industry would have to take notice!!!

SJCC, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I feel there are more multi-purpose cattle in the breed then there has ever been. I think that Gizmo is the perfect example. Think of the numerous steers sired by Gizmo that have won. I'm sure someone else on here has seen Gregg Stewart and Robert Carlson's Gizzy donor so they could probally back me up on the fact that she is one of the clubbiest cows I have ever seen and actually turned me off to Gizmo until I got to see more of his functional daughters. At the same time he shows up in the pedigree of AM as well. JPJ is another example of bulls that seem to be able to do it all. He can sire calves like Shortdawg's white steer and still go up to Dereck Jungles and produce commercial bulls. As I have said recently on other posts look at the success that cattle coming from Marty Loving and Keith Lauer are having in the showring now. TM Gus, ARSULU Osage, Mission, Tonic, and the list goes on and on of bulls that can sire commercial oriented bulls and females that can excel in the ring. I may be wrong but I can't think of a single NAILE or NWSS champion female that has had Double Stuff or a descendant in her pedigree. To me there are two types of show cattle, I classify them by Saturday and Sunday cattle. Saturday cattle are the heifers with to much hair to much set to their legs and win every little jackpot judged by some kid who just got done judging in college. These cattle have little to no genetic value other then producing a market steer or heifer. Saturday cattle show up to Sunday shows and usually stand at the bottom of the class. Sunday cattle are feminine angular cattle that get rolled at Saturday shows because they aren't stout enough. Fat and hair is fed and worked into cattle. Even without fat and hair a good percentage of Sunday cattle are still good cattle. I will agree with you that there is a correlation between masculine bulls and their more feminine daughters. What is the point of having cake if you can't eat it. Cake is espically good with a scoop of ice cream on the side. I've said this before but we raised a All-American bull out of a $1,400 cow from Marty Loving and a Eagle 148 son. That is the kind of cake you eat until your tummy hurts. ;D By the way are there any AM calves yet and how are they looking.
 
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