Older Low % Crossbred Cows - What Would You Do With Them?

[chambero]

Here is my situation.  We've got about 1/3 of our cowherd that is 10 years old or older.  These cows are generally black, low percetage crossbred cows (1/2 to 3/4 blood Angus) with exotic influence from old Maine lines such as Magic, Smithbuilt, and Pistol Pete; some Chi blood from Charles Burke's old Flash bull, and Simi from a real good 98 model Meyer son that we kept a bunch of replacements from.

Primary role of these cows is to produce commercial replacements or good feedlot steers.  In general, these are relatively large-framed cows. I'm trying to decide which way I want to breed them.  Getting rid of them isn't an option.  Too many of them to do a wholesale replacement - would cost way too much money.

"Problems" the cows have (I'm being picky here - most have done their jobs just fine or they wouldn't have stayed with us that long):

• Some have a few udder issues.  More a cosmetic problem than functional, but would like to improve it.
• Would like their calves to be a little deeper bodied and faster maturing.

I've got three viable options:

• Use perforamance oriented Angus bulls we've already got on them.  We have pretty nice sons from Sitz Angus bloodlines and a Bluemoon son.
• Use Ohlde/Griswold type, smaller framed Angus bulls on them in attempt to get some earlier maturing, easier doing cattle.  We bought a really nice Anchor son last year, but don't have any calves on the ground yet to see how its really gonna work.
• Use some 3/4 to 1/2 blood Maine bulls from some of the newer bloodlines in attempt to downsize them some but keep the heavier muscle.  These cattle would probably easier for us to sell as replacements, but I'm more interested in keeping the replacements for ourselves.

As we've gotten more refined for show steer production, we really just use AI to accomplish that.  For bulls we buy, I'm more interested in maternal and commercial production.

 

[kanshow]

I'd probably look for a good maternal moderate framed Simmental or SimAngus bull - maybe a Dream On son. 

 

[LN]

I would recommend SimAngus as a sire choice for your cows. Most are in the 6.0 FS range and they would do a good job of solving your "problems." My Grandpa tried just about every breed there is: Angus, Simmental, Chi, Maine, Limi, Hereford, Braunvieh and god knows what else. Of all the breeds he crossed with Angus, the SimAngus was his favorite.

The bluemoon you referenced, is that the RA Brown ranch bull?

 

[chambero]

The bluemoon you referenced, is that the RA Brown ranch bull?

Yes - we bought one of his first sons.

We have two newer MeyerxAngus sons we use on some of our straight commercial Angus cows.

 

[LN]

I used Blue Moon last year on my first calf heifers and rebred some to him again. I've been really impressed so far. The heifers are very maternal looking, structurally correct, and lots of body. If I had to nit pick they could have a little more bone and he definitely makes better females than males. We kept a few of steers sired by him for eating since his carcass numbers are stellar.

 

[Jill]

[

• Use Ohlde/Griswold type, smaller framed Angus bulls on them in attempt to get some earlier maturing, easier doing cattle.  We bought a really nice Anchor son last year, but don't have any calves on the ground yet to see how its really gonna work.

[

That would be my pick if I were trying for replacement females.  Most of our cows that fit that description we have made into recips and they work great!

 

[knabe]

• Some have a few udder issues.  More a cosmetic problem than functional, but would like to improve it.

without single trait selecting, ask tim who improves rather than maintains udder quality.

 

[Cattledog]

If the cows are low % crossbred I would use an angus bull on them.  The reason isn't because I raise angus..... but because it would give you a higher percentage angus and improve genetic predictability.  That Anchor son sounds really tempting. I have seen a couple Anchor daughters in production and they had beautiful udders on them.  If he is a typical Anchor he should be able to moderate the cows and give them that ground sow look. 

 

[Show Steaks]

If you're willign to put time into AI. try the angus bull Oneils Expedition... i have a registered angus steer by him running at a 4.1 adg.... real deep bodied fast growing his entire life roughly 3.33#'s per day of age... really quiet and quite a personality(good with gates)

 

[Freddy]

I used Duffs New Edition on some of the framer cows that are reg. Angus an felt like he did quite a job, have two sons for sale yet , they do have guts ,bone ,shortens them up some but just definitely put the fleshing ability in them. They grow fairly fast  but will quit sooner . You proably would get a little more growth where they are cross cows.

 

[CJC]

If it was me I would calve them out and then sale them. Then take the money and try to buy the best genetics possible. If it only meant that only got a 1/4 of my herd back so be it. IMHO I would rather have a small herd with great genetics than a large herd with decent genetics. JMO

 

[OH Breeder]

if they are good solid cows why not use them for recieps if you don't want to breed them. Good recieps are bringing good money.


If I were to use OCC, I would go with Anchor and Legend to bring them down and stouten them up.

 

[DLD]

Tough one.  Guess I'm in a kind of a similiar situation, on a smaller scale.  I've pretty much come to the conclusion that (at least for us) almost all of the good show steers are gonna come from AI'ing,  and that the clean up bulls need to be more geared toward producing replacement females. 

I really like the DCC/OCC kind of Angus bulls, and they'll leave us with moderate, easy keeping, fertile females that're really easy on the eyes. But... unless we use those bulls on big, super stout females, I have some concerns about their daughters being stout enough to raise those top end show steers.  How often do you hear of a steer that wins a major being out of a pb or even 3/4 Angus (or (asterik free)Shorthorn or Hereford) cow?  I think those bulls sure have a place in that they bring uniformity and soundness and fertility back to alot of the really juked up kind of cow herds, but I really think in most cases their offspring are still a generation (of adding back in power) away from being the kind that raise the top end kind of show steers.

So I'm thinking that something close to halfblood Maine/Angus or Simmi/Angus bulls are the way to go, if we can find 'em.  Why put ourselves another generation behind?

 

[shortdawg]

I would use them as recips. A lot of people use that term loosely but those recips should be as good a mama as your top end cows. You could use them that way and maybe market a few pregnancies to finance a few herd improving females.

 

[rtmcc]

I agree with e the Sim-Angus bull idea.  We breed Angus and a few Sim-Angus and those half blood females will really make some great females that milk and still have some power and structural correctness.  The other advantage is the steer calves will perform in the feed lot.  They can't all make salable show steers.

 

[Dero]

If I was in your situation I would definitely be looking for Chiangus bulls to place on these females.  You will not be loosing any performance actually you would be gaining performance.  Furthermore these calve will have added value over Angus sired calves being that the resulting progeny can be registered.  Since the general opinion is to use Duff or OCC type cattle my suggestion would be to sample some of the Shaffer programs genetics.  The JSC Advantage bull would fit right in along the lines of the Duff and OCC cattle.

 

[chambero]

Personally, I still like the true ChiAngus cattle, but it is hard to sell anything - especially females down here - if you mention they've got Chi in them.  As I mentioned, we use to heavily use some ChiAngus cattle from Charles Burk.  Just got rid of the last of those one of those bulls a couple of months ago due to age.

My family has been in the cattle business for a very long time - running Hereford bulls on Angus cows - up until the mid 90s when I talked my father-in-law into bringing in exotic blood in the form of Maines, Simis, and some Chi-Angus.  The commercial side of this business has paid a lot of bills and bought a fair bit of land - a lot more than the "show" side ever has.

We have not ventured into embryo transfer yet, due largely to lack of time on my part in previous years.  However, when we do, there is a physical limit on how many we've got time to mess with - and a limit on how much we could spend with what a I know would be a limited amount of cattle we could sell due to lack of a "name".  Even if we did use these cows for recips, we still need cleanup bulls.  I was wanting opinions on thoughts on those.

As far as selling a bunch to buy a few, that's a real good way to get in a big hole if you are wrong on a few decisions or if "fads" change.  If you trade "4 for 1", everyone of those calves has to bring close to $2,500 at weaning just to stay even on revenue.   That won't make sense for us. 

We "play" with our higher end cattle and that is enough of a handful for us.  I think last year we AI'd around 130 head or so counting virgin heifers.  I'm just trying to reevaluate what we are doing with the rest of them.

Thanks for all the input.  I'll let you know what we decide to do.

 

[shortdawg]

Sorry for the misleading advice. If I'm trading 4 for 1 I'm buying one that we can flush and get several calves per year out of plus embryo sales on top of that. One great donor can generate a lot of revenue. If you are not into ET that advice would surely not work for you. Good luck with your herd.

 

[jrg]

I'd go with the Ohlde genetics.  If you are keeping the females for replacements, they will be as efficient as anything out there and the steer calves should also be marketable in the feedlot.  We have a small group of ohlde cows that are bred to carneyman, whiskey, and aftershock for replacements and haven't taken a single heifer calf to town.  They are all keepers.

 

[chambero]

Sorry for the misleading advice. If I'm trading 4 for 1 I'm buying one that we can flush and get several calves per year out of plus embryo sales on top of that. One great donor can generate a lot of revenue. If you are not into ET that advice would surely not work for you. Good luck with your herd.

For various reasons, I'm afraid that we aren't sophisticated enough marketing-wise to realize the revenue on embryo sales that would be required.  Maybe someday, but not yet.