Opinions on young show persons

[mainecattlemother]

What is everyones opinion on young show persons either girls or boys.  In Minnesota for 4-H shows you must be finished with 3rd grade to show an animal.  You are considered a cloverbud prior to this time.  A child may exhibit but an older sibling or parent must lead the animal.  I understand that they do not want a competive event for the younger children and they are concerned about safety but at almost every open show we have been at I have seen kids as young as three years old exhibiting animals and have done just fine.  Yes there is usually a sibling or parent along side but they let the child lead the animal.  In our case our daughter has just finished 2nd grade.  She has shown at MN Beef Expo by herself for two years without any issues and has also shown at the North Star Classic in Valley City.  This weekend we are going to a first annual open class show and they will not allow her to show.  She has actually been pulled out for finals already in showmanship at past beef expos.  Yes we probably get to competitive but I think this is a little ridiculous.  What is everyones opinions on young showers.

 

[obie105]

Everything is about competition. There will always be winners and losers. I hated it as a kid playing y league sports because they didn't keep score. Kids know if they are winning and doing well or not. People will say that they try to protect the younger ones egos but kids need to be exposed to it to learn how to do well in life.
As for safety if the child can handle the animal they should beable to show. My brother got very frustrated with 4h because he had shown horses since he was 3 but had to wait years to show at the fair. Our cloverkids could only show small animals. Every child is different with their abilities and maturity level.

 

[J2F]

Everything is about competition. There will always be winners and losers. I hated it as a kid playing y league sports because they didn't keep score. Kids know if they are winning and doing well or not. People will say that they try to protect the younger ones egos but kids need to be exposed to it to learn how to do well in life.
As for safety if the child can handle the animal they should beable to show. My brother got very frustrated with 4h because he had shown horses since he was 3 but had to wait years to show at the fair. Our cloverkids could only show small animals. Every child is different with their abilities and maturity level.

Not keeping score, making age requirements or any rule of this nature is not because of dumb kids but idiot adults!!! You can't keep score in youth leagues cause it becomes about winning and losing to the adults instead of teaching and giving kids opputunitys.I have seen this in sub d softball with 5 yr old girls this year. So many girls getting shoved to the outfield and last in the batting order instead of being given any chance to learn.  You can't let 5 year old show a small well trained feeder calf because before you know it the kid is out their with a 1350 lb key steer cause the little 5 yr makes the steer look bigger. JMO. 99% of parents and adults would do it right it is the 1% that ruins it for everybody else. 

 

[J2F]

What is everyones opinion on young show persons either girls or boys.  In Minnesota for 4-H shows you must be finished with 3rd grade to show an animal.  You are considered a cloverbud prior to this time.  A child may exhibit but an older sibling or parent must lead the animal.  I understand that they do not want a competive event for the younger children and they are concerned about safety but at almost every open show we have been at I have seen kids as young as three years old exhibiting animals and have done just fine.  Yes there is usually a sibling or parent along side but they let the child lead the animal.  In our case our daughter has just finished 2nd grade.  She has shown at MN Beef Expo by herself for two years without any issues and has also shown at the North Star Classic in Valley City.  This weekend we are going to a first annual open class show and they will not allow her to show.  She has actually been pulled out for finals already in showmanship at past beef expos.  Yes we probably get to competitive but I think this is a little ridiculous.  What is everyones opinions on young showers.

I think it is the way it should be. It is not just about showing in 4H but the child should be able to take care of the project at home too. Until they are old enough to do that they can get a taste of the good stuff at a few open shows but you have to have a age limit somewhere for 4h projects. A 4 yr old could lead a well trained calf but is he/she going to hull a bucket of water to the calf, wash it, clip it, feed it or any other task of taking care of the animal at the show or home. JMO

 

[leanbeef]

I couldn't agree more with the LAST POST... This isn't about competition...it's about teaching responsibility & all the other things that go along with caring for a project animal throughout the entire length of the project. There are other opportunities for young children to show in competitive arenas if they're ahead of the curve. Personally, I don't want my 8 year old in a show ring with a bunch of other inexperienced 8 year olds (or younger) and each one of them on the end of a lead rope in a ring full of cattle. That's bordering on irresponsible.

Our kids start 4-H in the 4th grade, so most are 9 before they can show in a 4-H show. I've had three who are all showing cattle now, and I think the age limit seems appropriate for what is expected of them at that age. If it's important for a kid to compete and they're up for the job at hand, there's no reason he or she can't enter open shows with no age limits for exhibitors.

 

[obie105]

I have seen 17 year old girls that have a problem carrying a bucket of water. They don't even go to the barn. If the kid wants to do it and wants to be there they need to be encouraged and have a place to show what they can do. Kids do need to be worked with but the real world is a competition might as well get use to it.
By the way I am not an idiot adult just to clarify. If you don't think 5 year olds don't know who won a tball game just ask them. They will know the score.

 

[vc]

Nine years old seems to have worked well over the years, plus they have competitive projects for the children that are younger than that, just not large animals. I still worried when my boys first started with the steers, theirs were dog gentle but you have no control over the other animals in the ring, I have seen some steers get loose and make a mess out of things. I have also noticed some steers (animals) will act different towards the smaller kids, they do not fear them and will some times charge them like they would a predator. Not that 9 year old are that much bigger,  maybe the thought was they were more aware of their surroundings and would be in less danger, IDK.

Sometimes things work and should just be left as they are.

As for some kids getting put into the outfield, I have coached allot of sports and there have always been kids that I worry about when they are on the field, you work with them at practice but hide them during the games. Not because it is all about winning, because at practice I can control things, during the game you can not. Some kids lack concentration at a young age, (I know some adults do as well) If a kid showed that they could play a position they got a chance, if I thought that there was a good chance they were going to get injured I did not put them in that position. I would rather hear complaining from a parent about how little Johny is always in the outfield (digging a whole with his cleats in the grass), then have to see take a ball off his forehead be cause he is making designs in the infield.

 

[J2F]

I have seen 17 year old girls that have a problem carrying a bucket of water. They don't even go to the barn. If the kid wants to do it and wants to be there they need to be encouraged and have a place to show what they can do. Kids do need to be worked with but the real world is a competition might as well get use to it.
By the way I am not an idiot adult just to clarify. If you don't think 5 year olds don't know who won a tball game just ask them. They will know the score.

I was in no way calling you an idiot, not for a second. Your post seem to imply that the reason they don't keep scores in very young youth sports  is for the kids and I was offering another view that it has to do with the parents. Now if your one of the parents who get out on the field yelling at umpires, referees,  kids or coaches for messing up  and are more worried about winning then the kids learning a sport and liking it so they want to continue to play next year, then maybe I am :. I heard of a father jumping into the ring this year at the county fair and threaten to kill the judge at cause his child and project got placed 2ND in class.

What does the 17 year old girl scenario prove? ???

There is a platform to encourage a child's love for showing... it is the open shows until they are of age to join 4H.

PS our 5 and 6 year old girls softball team didn't care about winning and losing until the coaches started yelling at them for losing and making them run laps for it.  They thought they had a hard time finding enough girls  for the team this year... wait till next. That brings up another interesting question what if.... If something happens to discourge the child from wanting to show at such a young age. I know my daughter wouldn't walk a calf for a while after seeing a calf act up in the ring  on an older girl in the ring. The youngens are smart and see and understand  more than we think.  It took me 3 days to figure out why she didn't want  to go to the cattle barn and help daddy.

 

[J2F]

VC I know what you are saying on the safety aspect of it all and agree with you 100%  but they won't even work with the kids that are less skilled in practice. Just to be clear it is not my kid in the outfield but right is right and they are doing other kids wrong. I even talked to the coaches and told them that my kid can go to the outfield and bat last to give every kid a chance but nothing get's thru to them. 

Nine years old seems to have worked well over the years, plus they have competitive projects for the children that are younger than that, just not large animals. I still worried when my boys first started with the steers, theirs were dog gentle but you have no control over the other animals in the ring, I have seen some steers get loose and make a mess out of things. I have also noticed some steers (animals) will act different towards the smaller kids, they do not fear them and will some times charge them like they would a predator. Not that 9 year old are that much bigger, maybe the thought was they were more aware of their surroundings and would be in less danger, IDK.

Sometimes things work and should just be left as they are.

As for some kids getting put into the outfield, I have coached allot of sports and there have always been kids that I worry about when they are on the field, you work with them at practice but hide them during the games. Not because it is all about winning, because at practice I can control things, during the game you can not. Some kids lack concentration at a young age, (I know some adults do as well) If a kid showed that they could play a position they got a chance, if I thought that there was a good chance they were going to get injured I did not put them in that position. I would rather hear complaining from a parent about how little Johny is always in the outfield (digging a whole with his cleats in the grass), then have to see take a ball off his forehead be cause he is making designs in the infield.
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[obie105]

I am not a crazy parent just competitive. I know where to draw the line. My dad has umpired and reffed every sport out there and I have done basketball with him. I have also coached basketball and everyone got a fair shot as long as they showed up to practice and tried. The whole 17 thing was based off of the comment that the child has to be able to do chores. There are many that no matter the age don't work with their projects. I know several families back home that their hogs are at someone else's house and come fair day they don't even know which pen is there's. Safety is a concern but when kids eant to do something you shouldn't hold them back. Age restrictions tend to do that.
As for overcoming fear that I don't know.  I was older when I got hurt and people could reason with me a little better than a child. Its all about confidence I guess.

 

[heatherleblanc]

I have been showing by myself since I was 5 years old, but it was in open shows with my families animals.  I think in 4H, it's not as much about the safety, but just that in 4H, the idea is to buy and raise your own animal, and get to understand the business, and a 5 year old isn't going to be able to comprehend that.  I don't really agree or disagree, but that is my idea as to what they might be thinking.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I agree with the general consensus here!  I think its partly about safety, yes there are a lot of kids that can handle calves by themselves at younger ages, but at the same time there are a lot of kids who cant.  I have seen some kids that were old enough to show in 4-H but were small for their age and still struggled to handle animals on their own.  But I think the biggest reason behind it is that the point of the Jr Projects is not just for kids to come to the show and compete, but for the animals to be a project as the name says.  The purpose is for the kids to pick their animal, raise their animal, work their animal, and show their animal.  I think the general consensus is that 8 or 9 yrs old is the age where most kids are mature enough to accept the responsibility and actually gain something from the project.

 

[vanridge]

I don't think they are trying to hold your child back by having these rules. It has a lot to do with safety in the show ring. My biggest fear about my kids in the show ring is that someone else's animal spooks his and he gets hurt because they aren't always able to take in ALL of their surroundings and process everything that 's happening. My second big fear is that my kids animal gets spooked and hurts somebody elses little kid, That's why are 8 year old is going to the fair with a calf that he's been bottle raising and our 10 year old is going to the fair with his 4-H steer. They are both doing the work at home with these animals, and no a bottle calf isn't gonna win the show (which is okay because he's doing 2 pee wee classes) however, he gets to show off the work he's been doing at home. It's good for a child to stand at the top but he'll learn more standing at the bottom. However, I have seen some very good under 8 year old showman... but they were all with calendar year calves.

 

[DLD]

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=23650.msg230759#msg230759

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=14770.msg158483#msg158483

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=6596.msg74242#msg74242

There are prob'ly others, but these were the first couple I found.  My thoughts on this subject are pretty easy to find in those threads.  All that said though, there has to be a line somewhere.  Like many other parents, we were in a big hurry for our oldest to get started - he was showing at age 5, and though he was never hurt or even very shook up, I truly think it was alot more comfortable for everyone when our youger two (twins) started at 8.  I'm not criticizing anyone for starting their kids younger than 8, I know there's a lot of difference in kids, cattle and situations - but I guess what I'm saying is I can't argue with a show (especially a big one, with lots of exhibitors and cattle to get through, bigger show rings, more cattle per class, etc...) drawing that line at 8 or 9.  For them it's a simple issue of safety and probably also liability.  I know it's frustrating that your child is not being allowed to show after they (and you) have worked hard and you feel that they've proven themselves capable... I know, I've been there.  But relax - their day will come.

 

[sackshowcattle]

I think if done right younger kids should be allowed to show. I think an age or size limit for the calf should be put in place. Not bottle calf show either full fit little prospect calves. I think a couple extra years of working calves and you would see less parents fitting and more kids fitting. But there does need to be a limit on size cause some parents just don't understand limitations of their kids. One year I gave a buddy a late july calf that was small only weighed 450 pounds at NWSS and was gentle. Had a calf try to jump on its back and it just stood there for that little girl to show all by her self at 5 years old. Every year since I have seen different families try the same thing. They put way to big leather gloves on their precious child, dad fights the 1000 lb calf all the way to the ring as the gate opens mom gives kid a hug and says try your best. the kid and calf go 10 feet kid hits the ground as the calf bolts and after the rodeo of catching the calf it is shown tied to the rail. 

 

[RidinHeifer]

Depends on calf.  My two neighbor boys (6 and 4) come to help feed sometimes, and I have a 3 year old cow that they get to feed on their own and play with.  They sit on her, rub her belly while she's eating, give her hugs, etc...  Would I let then do this on any others...heck no!  They know not to pushher head, play with her tail, back legs, and to not try to milk her "boobies".  They can open the gate with the grain, walk in, dump the grain, and then do whatever to her.  Frankly she loves it as much ad they do.  I didn't let then start doing this until they proved they could do with the sheep first then I let them move up.  But, not all cows are like this and I am always right at the gate. 

Let's be real, how many kids do it all themselves anyways? I know I do, but most of the kids in my county don't.  Instill the responsibility early by just having them help mom and dad out

 

[Tallcool1]

I think this is just another one of those "The rules are the rules" deals.

Usually (Not Always) when I really think through an issue like this, or go as far as to ask someone what the thought process is behind the rule, I find that it is in fact a good rule with good intentions.

Like every rule, there are always exceptions.  Sure there are 5 year old kids showing the right 1250# steer that can get along just fine!  If you are the parent of one of those kids then you should be proud.  I sure would be.  However, this young exhibitor is by no means typical.  Rules such as this are generally put in place based upon what is considered to be the typical exhibitor.  Someone made the determination that a reasonable age break is ____ , and that is now the rule.  Unfortunately the parents of very talented and hard working kids that fall below this age break are just gonna have to wait a couple more years.

I have coached baseball, basketball, and softball for several years.  I have coached state champion teams, First Team All State players, future college standouts, and some teams that couldn't win their way out of a wet paper sack.  One thing that I have figured out is that the difference between the kids that get "buried" at the bottom of the order and the kids that end up being standouts......is commitment.  The kids that are great are far more committed than the kids that are not.  It is not typically about resources or ability.  It is about hard work.  With that said, why don't the kids that get "buried" not have the same level of commitment?  Because they simply don't want to.  It's not a crime, it is a reality.  So mom/dad, instead of barking at me about your kid batting 8th......why don't you go outside and play catch with them?  If us coaches want to win so bad, then we are not putting your kid in right field because we don't like him, or because he is too good.  Bring us something that belongs at the top of the batting order and we will put them there!

 

[mainecattlemother]

Thanks for all the comments.  I really appreciate it.  Didnt mean to open up a can of worms just wanted everyones opinion.  We are very careful what we have our daughter show.  If we dont feel she can handle the animal we will not let her show.  We have a steer like this at home.  He is approx 1250 lb and she probably could handle him as he is pretty mellow but we do not feel confident so she has never even walked him but she sure does help with feedings.  She is planning on showing her animal at our open show at our county fair.  We do not have age limits for our open show as long as we feel there is no danger.  She is just finishing up swimming lessons this week so she is just excited to be able to swim at the motel and is excited for showing at our county fair.  Just for your info she has named her calf Baby Blue.  She is a blue roan Maine Anjou heifer.  She is actually a Junior Yearling.  Probably too big for her but she has worked with her since baby and lays with her all the time and has no problems leading her around the yard.  Again, thanks for the comments!!

 

[J2F]

I don't disagree with what you say when appling your beliefs to older kids. At a certain age it is not fair to the kids that have commitment and work hard at a sport  if you play everyone as if they are equal but at 5 or 6 years old starting out in a sport or any activity I respectfully disagree, every young kid should get equal playing time and opportunity's. That is the only way a youngster would get to see if they will ever even fall in love with the sport and have the commitment you are talking about. I do think this is why it is getting harder and harder for rural towns to find enough kids to even field teams now a days.

I do understand from the coaching perspective of their is a many of parents that think their Johnny or Sally is an all star when they haven't even looked at a ball  since last season and can't figure out why they are not moving up in an activity and blaming the coach or adviser but that is not what I am talking about. You see that in 4 H, some kids work hard on their project all year and do well and others do not and sit around and blame everything under the sun....except themselves that is.

I do have one question that is most likely going to start something but I hope not. You say bring you something that is worthy of the top of the order and you will put them there. Is that all the coach is suppose to do? Use what is brought to them or to coach and teach a kid? I feel lucky I grew up playing sports and can help my kids if they so choose to participate in them but I see several children that don't have that option to them.Again I am not trying to start something that statement just sticks out as odd to me and again I am talking young children not teenagers.

I think this is just another one of those "The rules are the rules" deals.

Usually (Not Always) when I really think through an issue like this, or go as far as to ask someone what the thought process is behind the rule, I find that it is in fact a good rule with good intentions.

Like every rule, there are always exceptions.  Sure there are 5 year old kids showing the right 1250# steer that can get along just fine!  If you are the parent of one of those kids then you should be proud.  I sure would be.  However, this young exhibitor is by no means typical.  Rules such as this are generally put in place based upon what is considered to be the typical exhibitor.  Someone made the determination that a reasonable age break is ____ , and that is now the rule.  Unfortunately the parents of very talented and hard working kids that fall below this age break are just gonna have to wait a couple more years.

I have coached baseball, basketball, and softball for several years.  I have coached state champion teams, First Team All State players, future college standouts, and some teams that couldn't win their way out of a wet paper sack.  One thing that I have figured out is that the difference between the kids that get "buried" at the bottom of the order and the kids that end up being standouts......is commitment.  The kids that are great are far more committed than the kids that are not.  It is not typically about resources or ability.  It is about hard work.  With that said, why don't the kids that get "buried" not have the same level of commitment?  Because they simply don't want to.  It's not a crime, it is a reality.  So mom/dad, instead of barking at me about your kid batting 8th......why don't you go outside and play catch with them?  If us coaches want to win so bad, then we are not putting your kid in right field because we don't like him, or because he is too good.  Bring us something that belongs at the top of the batting order and we will put them there!

 

[J2F]

I apoligize if I hijacked you thread with my sports comparison.  : I will be more carefull in the future.  (thumbsup)

Thanks for all the comments.  I really appreciate it.  Didnt mean to open up a can of worms just wanted everyones opinion.  We are very careful what we have our daughter show.  If we dont feel she can handle the animal we will not let her show.  We have a steer like this at home.  He is approx 1250 lb and she probably could handle him as he is pretty mellow but we do not feel confident so she has never even walked him but she sure does help with feedings.  She is planning on showing her animal at our open show at our county fair.  We do not have age limits for our open show as long as we feel there is no danger.  She is just finishing up swimming lessons this week so she is just excited to be able to swim at the motel and is excited for showing at our county fair.  Just for your info she has named her calf Baby Blue.  She is a blue roan Maine Anjou heifer.  She is actually a Junior Yearling.  Probably too big for her but she has worked with her since baby and lays with her all the time and has no problems leading her around the yard.  Again, thanks for the comments!!