Pasture sales and disclosure of info (Lack thereof)

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Show Heifer

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Ok, I have slept on this and can't let it go.

I went to several pasture sales yesterday and saw some nice calves. Some were better than others, some flat out awesome, some flat out bad. I would venture to guess that well over half of the heifers were out of carrier bulls. So to test some folks theory (that most are being open and up front on TH/PHA)  I picked several out heifers that were possible carriers and started asking questions... "How good are her maternal genes?  What kind of momma cow is she out of?  What would you breed her to? etc.... All questions directed at the heifer being a COW, not a terminal market heifer. And guess what? Only ONE breeder informed me of TH/PHA. The same breeder told me their test results. All of the others, not only didn't test the heifers, but NEVER MENTIONED THE DEFECTS ONCE. Not one tiny mention. At one place I even suggested I would breed the possible carrier TO A CARRIER, and still nothing. ???

So to those of you out there that believe folks are doing the right thing, think again.  :mad:
 

stick

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We experienced the same thing. Went to 6 different places, heard several responses ranging from: should be OK, you might want to have her tested if you plan on breeding her, we sent them in last week, you would breed her?  and got a couple of dirty looks, like what are you trying to do scare away the other people? One place was very honest and even took the time to put together sheets that told the TH/PHA status of the sires and bloodlines of the dams and would pay for the test if the buyer wanted. So I guess in baseball terms we"re batting around  .200.  Well, like Willie says..."On the road again.."
 

red

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I think in a perfect world, all potential carriers would be tested. I guess in a perfect world there would be no carriers. I think a lot has to do w/ what you are looking for in a heifer. If someone is looking for a heifer for the show ring then they are not going to be as concerned. If they are looking down the road long term then they are going to be proactive.

I've been watching some sales over the internet. One has the status of most of their cattle listed. The carrier cattle are actually going for a higher price. Would the be even higher if clean? I imagine so.
My best advice is to go to sales that you know what you're buying if that is a concern. remeber, not everyone is as concerned as some of us are. Some while buy a heifer no matter what she tests as.

These are just my thoghts & observations. Like I said in a perfect world there would be no need for a test.

Red
 

afhm

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Many of those pasture sales will state on their sale sheet that the calves are sold as is where is with no guarantee of soundness or fertility.  I have had many of the guys in the Dakotas tell me which bulls they had carriers/defects out of.  Most of them figure with all the press semen catatlogs that list statuses and message boards that the buyers are informed.  I went to one place last year that had a disclaimer on their sheet about possible carrier bulls and heifers, I wish I still had all of that so I could remember which place it was. 
 

pigguy

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well we bought 2 heifers last night and their neighbor had cattle for sale also. and i asked some questions about a heifer, she was a THC and a PHAC, and then the guy said the heifers that are carriers of both are usually better show heifers, because there is something in th and pha that just makes them better....i think that should go under "things that makes you go humm" (cow) (cow)  but most of the people i taked to said they hadnt tested any of the cattle.
 

DL

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Show Heifer said:
Ok, I have slept on this and can't let it go.

I went to several pasture sales yesterday and saw some nice calves. Some were better than others, some flat out awesome, some flat out bad. I would venture to guess that well over half of the heifers were out of carrier bulls. So to test some folks theory (that most are being open and up front on TH/PHA)  I picked several out heifers that were possible carriers and started asking questions... "How good are her maternal genes?  What kind of momma cow is she out of?  What would you breed her to? etc.... All questions directed at the heifer being a COW, not a terminal market heifer. And guess what? Only ONE breeder informed me of TH/PHA. The same breeder told me their test results. All of the others, not only didn't test the heifers, but NEVER MENTIONED THE DEFECTS ONCE. Not one tiny mention. At one place I even suggested I would breed the possible carrier TO A CARRIER, and still nothing. ???

So to those of you out there that believe folks are doing the right thing, think again.  :mad:

Show Heifer, stick et al - I've experienced the same and I agree with you 100% - when there is money to be made it becomes quickly apparent who does and who does not do the right thing - although some folks are doing the right thing as SH says "So to those of you out there that believe folks are doing the right thing, think again.  :mad: "

I guess I don't understand the logic that if you are looking for a heifer for the show ring you aren't going to be concerned - when her show career is over to we eat her? Or do we flush her and make more little carriers - winning is nice but if your only goal in life is to win in the show ring then you really aren't a cattle breeder, and it isn't hard to find guys pushing carrier genetics based on their excellent performance in the show ring....yeah maine12 it does make ya go hmmmm  :(
 

afhm

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I have a question about these pasture sales.  Why do all of these guys say a calf is on the sale?  Shouldn't it be the calf is in the sale?  Granted the calf is on, not in the sale sheet.  I can see a calf being on sale, but not on a sale.  I made a spelling  and punctuation correction so hopefully this is easier to read.
 

Show Heifer

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Frustrating for sure......
I did learn a lot, and for that I am appreciative.  Some calves were weaned, some were not. All were clipped and I sure enjoyed looking at the different syles of clipping.  Meant several really nice "buyers" that were from out of state, and took it as a compliment when the said they always enjoyed their trip here.
But another thing concerned me....I looked at roughly 200 head of calves, and I honestly don't think you could have grouped 10 head of heifers or steers together and made a matched group.  Styles and types were EVERYWHERE on the board. Maybe could that be the problem with the showring....not enough uniformity throughout the industry? Just a thought......
 

afhm

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Show heifer who had the best sets?  If all the calves were clipped then I'd venture to say you went no further west than  Iowa.
 

Show Dad

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afmh - ouch  :eek:! Here in KS went to two sales and both were clipped. Which was nice but reluctantly, I agree, it isn't the norm. But both were successful so maybe it will be a growing trend.
 

Show Heifer

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The best heifer I saw was at McCullough's (Maine Aim Ranch). She was sired Mr. Clean and was just flat awesome. She didn't have a hole in her. And of course, TH/PHA clean!! Their sale is a load and go sale (no bidding, no waiting!)
Hunter Bros had alot to pick from and had a steer or two that were popular, also had a Hannibal heifer that was being promoted pretty hard. Not sure where the prices all stopped.
I don't want to point and pick on others cattle, as it is just my opinion, but as a whole I was disappointed. The other places had their one or two good ones, then the others riding their shirttails. Some of the calves won't be around long, as they were already too straight, but they still had a price tag. ???
Floor prices were between $1000-1500.
Am planning on attending a few more, so will keep ya posted, if ya want!
 

afhm

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Show Dad I have seen cattle that were clipped in pasture sales in every state in the midwest, but as far as the majority of them will be in Iowa.  In SD there will be a handful same as NE but most of those places have too many to do.  From 1st hand experience clipping those babies still on the cow that aren't broke is a royal pain.

Show Heifer which Mr. Clean was it at Maine Aim?  What is she priced at?  How did the 27 heifer, 11 steer, 14 steer, and 3 steer look?  I haven't been able to leave and go looking yet this year.
 

Joe Boy

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I ran across some bulls for sale that had been shown and owned by 4 - H children.  I liked one bulls pedigree and his EPD's, so I called them up and asked them about the PHA and TH.  They, of course, had never heard of it.  The bull has a grand sire and a great grand sire who are know carriers.  I really feel for kids that purchase a breeding animal, show it as a breeding animal, and then when they want to sell it discover that there are possible genetic problems.  It turned out that the bulls originated from a board member's herd.  This bull is young enough that the disorder was known and the great grandsire was the first bull to be discovered that produced defective calves.  WHY NOT BE HONEST?  I really do not want such people representing my breed.  If they cannot be honest in selling to a kid they are not honestly interested in what is best for the breed!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

Show Heifer

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afhm: The Mr.Clean heifer was lot 33, out of a McCarney (sp) cow. She really was a great one.  I am not sure what she was priced at, as it was not a bid off type of sale, and I didn't ask.
I can't picture the steers, but let me find my notes, and I will get back to ya....but I do know that they had some really nice calves that were reasonably priced.
 

garybob

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Joe Boy said:
I ran across some bulls for sale that had been shown and owned by 4 - H children.  I liked one bulls pedigree and his EPD's, so I called them up and asked them about the PHA and TH.  They, of course, had never heard of it.  The bull has a grand sire and a great grand sire who are know carriers.  I really feel for kids that purchase a breeding animal, show it as a breeding animal, and then when they want to sell it discover that there are possible genetic problems.  It turned out that the bulls originated from a board member's herd.  This bull is young enough that the disorder was known and the great grandsire was the first bull to be discovered that produced defective calves.   WHY NOT BE HONEST?  I really do not want such people representing my breed.   If they cannot be honest in selling to a kid they are not honestly interested in what is best for the breed!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
JoeBoy, buddy, now you know where I'm coming from, and where I stand, in regards to these cattle, in all breeds, AND, the scoundrels who let these cattle out there for a young person to get dissappointed over.
 

knabe

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what would it take for them to be back in good graces, and opionions on the silence without personal attacks?
 

40yrold4her

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Here in Nebraska most of the sales have there heads and tails clipped and that is it. I have visited  about 6 sales, one sale had three heifers of outstanding quality and were all being sold as market type projects, another producer went out of his way to point out the positive heifer he had in is herd. The other sites did not say a word about it but I was ignoring breeding heifers and looking at market types to begin with.
 

justintime

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OK.... I am just not buying it!!!  Well, not all of it anyways. What am I talking about?   Well, I am talking about the urban legend out there that some breeders are telling everyone.... that being that the animals that are THC and PHAC are always the best show heifers/ steers. I will agree that some of them are dwon right good, but there are lots just as good that are THF and PHAF out there. Personally, I am beginning to think that this legend is being propagated by breeders who need an excuse to continue to use a few furballl carrier bulls that they have been using for some time. I have a few carrier females in my herd. Not one of them was even in the top 25% of my calf crop. All but one of these females is a recip now. The other one is a daughter of my all time high dollar generating female, that is now gone. She is bred to calve next spring to a THF and PHAF sire and hopefully she will have a free daughter or bull that can carry on the line. Last year I had 5 ET heifers from a flush of a TH carrier bull and a TH free donor female. I found out the sire was a carrier after the flush was done and the embryos were implanted. As a group they were some of the best calves I had last year. 3 of the 5 were extremely high quality and I was thinking that all of these would be THC as I had heard that the good ones are almost always carriers. I sent the bloods in and  to my surprise, the 3 best heifers were THF and the poorest two were THC.

In regards to the comments about producers who do not disclose the status of their calves they are offering for sale. I think it is time for people to start to spend more time considering the reputation of the owners along with consideration of the quality they offer. Unfortunately, I am probably too old to ever see this happen to the degree that it should. Maybe it will take a bunch more people who get burnt from buying carrier females and finding out that these females are not as good an investment as they thought, once their show careers are over.
 

DL

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justintime said:
OK.... I am just not buying it!!!  Well, not all of it anyways. What am I talking about?  Well, I am talking about the urban legend out there that some breeders are telling everyone.... that being that the animals that are THC and PHAC are always the best show heifers/ steers. I will agree that some of them are down right good, but there are lots just as good that are THF and PHAF out there. Personally, I am beginning to think that this legend is being propagated by breeders who need an excuse to continue to use a few furballl carrier bulls that they have been using for some time. I have a few carrier females in my herd. Not one of them was even in the top 25% of my calf crop. All but one of these females is a recip now. The other one is a daughter of my all time high dollar generating female, that is now gone. She is bred to calve next spring to a THF and PHAF sire and hopefully she will have a free daughter or bull that can carry on the line. Last year I had 5 ET heifers from a flush of a TH carrier bull and a TH free donor female. I found out the sire was a carrier after the flush was done and the embryos were implanted. As a group they were some of the best calves I had last year. 3 of the 5 were extremely high quality and I was thinking that all of these would be THC as I had heard that the good ones are almost always carriers. I sent the bloods in and  to my surprise, the 3 best heifers were THF and the poorest two were THC.

In regards to the comments about producers who do not disclose the status of their calves they are offering for sale. I think it is time for people to start to spend more time considering the reputation of the owners along with consideration of the quality they offer. Unfortunately, I am probably too old to ever see this happen to the degree that it should. Maybe it will take a bunch more people who get burnt from buying carrier females and finding out that these females are not as good an investment as they thought, once their show careers are over.

AMEN!! I am with you JIT - I don't buy it and in fact I think it is a bunch of hogwash -

I wonder how many dead PHA and TH calves are winners? Lets see a purple ribbon around the neck of a bloated PHA calf - a picture worth a thousand words. And these dead calves really do add money to your pocket book (if you sold the carrier female, bull, semen or flush) - and pound for pound they are just as dead as a calf that died from some other cause. So lets continue to propagate a lethal genetic defect with the rumor that you can only win if you have a carrier calf - propagate a lethal genetic defect so we can win in the show ring and break some kids heart when her prized heifer dies with her dead PHA calf. And lets continue to be silent about the carrier bulls because after all commercial cattlemen don't care - until they unknowingly retain carrier females and buy another carrier bull and you know what - dead PHA or TH calves are a bigger pain in the butt and a greater financial loss than dehorning. Can you even imagine what it would be like if people were honest and upfront?

Worlds biggest urban cattle legend
- you can only win if your calf is a carrier - author - could be any of several promoting carrier bulls, not testing females, or involved in the sin of omission - the legend is likely spread by those promoting and selling carriers - isn't that interesting

Buyer beware - seems quite a few sellers don't give a darn as long as they get their $ - ain't life grand!
 
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