pha and th....still around

[aj]

I'm sure I'm the last one to notice but I was reading the Show Circuit. Its kinda like a playboy magazine I like to look at the pictures mainly. I noticed that were Charolais looking A.I. sires that were th and pha carriers. There are Herford looking sires that are th or pha. There has to be a physical trait that some pha carriers have. Seemed like to me that pha is creeping back into breed again after it was first considered taboo. I have heard of Red Angus and Limousin breeders using th cattle. Won't this all eventually bleed into the respective breed show cattle. Then also what about breed purity? Would it be possible to have a half shorthorn-half Red Angus show bull be shown as a pure Shorthorn and win the championship. When are say champion bulls tested for purity. Should Herford A.I.(registered Herfords) be tested for th.....and if they are postitive what do you do. Do you wait for a defective th calf to show up in Herfords before you start worring about it. Will th become so prevalent that a (in the field) test be invented. I am not a crusader against genetic defects but it seems inevitable that th and pha is floating around out there in other breeds. Can you test a Grand Champion say Shorthorn bull for purity. If Red Angus shows up can they tell how much? I know this kind of stuff has happened before. I once heard an old timer say that the grand champion Shorthorn,Angus, and herford steers in one major show were all sired by Cunia one year. I have one pha positive cow and she is probably phenotypically the most attractive of the herd. It is kind of amazing what the old Improver started. One bull shipped  in from Ireland 30 years ago and now all of this. Same for Double stuff and heatseeker. It just seems like all breed asscoiations should be concerned about the popularity of these defective bulls and how they will be spread it possibly all breeds. And then will we get a slight mutation of the deal and then have to go through another testing program and snake hunt to figure out the slightly different configuration? Just and observation. It would be interesting to know how many show cattle out there have the old improver bull in their lineage.

 

[Show Heifer]

aj, and to think.... oh never mind.

Many of those "breed champions" are "breed type" shows. For example, I heard that shows in Texas breed type by LOOKS. So, if it looks like a herford, poof, it is a hereford, even if it is a shortie. Etc. In fact the champion limi down there a few years ago HAD ABSOLUTELY NO LIMI IN ITS PEDIGREE!

aj, are you implying that people KNOWINGLY use another breed in their purebred herds to make a superior animal? Come one, really? I think DL and I mentioned this scenario a year or so ago and well, it wasn't so well received. What about the commercial cattleman? Oh yea, I remember the response we got to that was "they get what they pay for", and "we will tell them". Wonder how THAT is working.

I could go on, but to say I am NOT surprised is an understatement. In fact my response is "DUHHHH."

 

[HerefordGuy]

The Show Circuit does not represent pure breed cattle.  I agree with Show Heifer, in the club calf world, it is about breed type not being fullblood.  PurebredHerefords will not have a problem with TH or PHA because they have a closed herd book.  Which means, both the sire and dam of the calf to be registered must be fullblood Hereford.  So, any breed with a closed herd book will not have a problem with TH and PHA, but they may have their own genetic defects, such as Curly Calf in Angus and IE in Hereford.  Mutations happen very rarely, so it is unlikely to get a slightly different configuration of TH or PHA.
There will probably not be a "field test" for genetic tests, because you have to extract DNA from the cells, and that is a tedious process.  Second, the actual test requires equipment that is only practical to have in a lab due to cost and size.
I think there can be moderation in breeding out genetic defects.  I think it is extreme to slaughter every genetic defect carrier, but I think it is very unwise to breed a carrier to a carrier.  Also, I feel it would be unwise to keep replacement heifers that are carriers.  So my advice to you about your high quality carrier cow would be to breed her to bulls that have tested clean.  Then, if she has a heifer calf that you might want to keep as a replacement or a bull calf you want to sell as a herd bull, I would have those calves tested.

Just my $0.02.

Jared

 

[herefordfootball]

You are not going to find any "true herefords" with PHA or TH. And like Show Heifer said those shows have "look" classes, so your hereford steer might be half shorthorn or maine or whatever else they are crossing them with nowadays. And you cant eliminate all the sires or dams with TH or PHA, because that'd be a lot of good cows and bulls going to down the road, that could've made some real good show calves. Personally we do not have any carriers in our cow herd, they are all free by pedigree or tested for it. We havent bred any carrier bulls until this year we are flushing one to Heat Wave, other than that we havent bred carrier bulls before, but we probaly will in the future.

 

[knabe]

There will probably not be a "field test" for genetic tests, because you have to extract DNA from the cells, and that is a tedious process. 

it is not tedius.  pull some hair.  put in sodium hydroxide, squish, dilute with water 10 fold, squirt 2uL into $1 worth of cocktail, place in machine.

i think a company called cepheid has some field pcr machines.

anyone could do this easily for any

probably the stumbling blocks will be validating the results for registration and licensing rights.  probably others.

 

[BIGTEX]

What Limousin breeders are using TH? Do you know of any bulls that have TH in their blood? I would like to know. I haven't seen a Limi with enough bone or good enough hair to look TH pos.

 

[chambero]

In Texas, our steer shows are classified visually.  It's as accurate as any other method.  Which means there's no accuracy to it at all.

All heifers (Jr. and Open) and buls at major shows have to be papered.  Which means nothing for the most part.

 

[CAB]

  Chabero, kind of like the shows up here that are breeds, but you don't have to show papers. I saw a red roan calf win the Red Angus div. @ an AGR show that wsas breed classified. The judge had to make a comment about it. He said "it wasn't his job to decide whether the calves were legit", rather it was his job to place the cattle in the ring.

 

[shortyjock89]

Dang Brent, we hafta show papers here in Illinois, not sure what kinda flim flam you guys have there west of the Mississippi 

 

[JSchroeder]

I've always thought it was sort of ironic that the aspect of steer shows that most reflected real life beef production was the visual classification system.  The guys sitting on the front row of the auction barn sure don't care about papers and they're most certainly "classifying" every animal that comes through the ring.

 

[aj]

Well I'm not signaling out Herfords. But you can have a closed herd book(no appendix program) and yoy know someone has introduced th to the pure Herford breed. The papers will have to say something else of course. |The Shorthorn breed is not immune to the deal. Someone said earlier on this board that there was like 7 Maine Anjou  bulls that passed as shorthorns on the days blood test. This probably is because the horns and Maines were related.

 

[herefordfootball]

In Texas, our steer shows are classified visually.  It's as accurate as any other method.  Which means there's no accuracy to it at all.

All heifers (Jr. and Open) and buls at major shows have to be papered.  Which means nothing for the most part.

Sure papers mean something, the crooked breeder has to go to the association and pay for papers!!!  (lol) 

 

[oakbar]

PHA & TH---still around----along with countless other genetic diseases in almost every breed.  I remember a time not too long ago when certain Angus breeders kind of looked down their noses at the Shorthorn and Maine breeders and told me that our breeds were "junk" because of TH and PHA.  I can't help but wonder if they feel their breed is "junk" now , too!!

I'm sure the whole genetic defect(regardless of breed) will continue on as long as most of us are around and linebreeding is an acceptable practice.  Remember the old definition:  "If it works out like you wanted--its linebreeding, if it doesn't--its inbreeding".  There are almost certainly other genetic diseases floating around out there in the gene pool of every breed that we don't even know about.  For example:  if a black breed has a problem and the other breeds decide they want their cattle black instead of red or red and white, that gene could end up in the other breeds---Oh, wait, that already happened!!  I've even heard of TH showing up in Angus cattle that supposedly have no Maine influence.  Meanwhile, some of the Maine breeders claim they have no Shorthorn influence so they can't have it either.  Well, how did it get there then??

I don't have a problem with someone keeping a carrier female and testing the offspring, etc.  I do have a problem with people who promote bulls  who are carriers, maybe even double carriers.  In my opinion, every breed should institute a policy to automatically castrate any carrier bulls no matter what the defect.  Obviously, we can't control what the clubby folks do--and we probably shouldn't--but if you can test for a genetic disorder in a breed and a bull comes up positive,  I think he should be disqualified from having papers as a bull.  JMHO

 

[justintime]

Well said Lynn, I could not agree more.

I just got phoned and got some TH results on some 09 calves, and found out that one of my very best bull calves is a TH carrier. I was sure hoping he was TH free as he would have been put into the show pen soon. His dam is a carrier cow that I got in a herd purchase, but I thought the price was right and she would make a good recip female. Last year she did not hold the implanted embryo, so she got bred to the bull. She has a roan bull calf that is quite remarkable, but now he will be a steer. In our country, we do not have the same market for clubby steers as most of you have. A good bull will sell for more than a good steer most of the time. This guy will now be a steer no matter what he is worth. I just wish many more people would do the same.

 

[Show Heifer]

Quote from oakbar: I've even heard of TH showing up in Angus cattle that supposedly have no Maine influence. 

All I can say is absolute NO angus have been verified with TH that has parently verified back to registered angus parents. I am not saying there are angus cross cattle that carry TH, but so far, no purebred angus has been verified.
If you desire, call the expert himself and ask.

But I agree with your other statements. The defect problem isn't going to fix itself, and so far, what little effort has been put into it, has done no good. I think the angus has the right idea... no registry of carriers after 2010. 

 

[JSchroeder]

I've even heard of TH showing up in Angus cattle that supposedly have no Maine influence.

When and with what pedigree?

 

[oakbar]

Sorry guys---didn't mean to get the Angus lovers all fired up!!    What I should have said is I've heard rumors of TH showing up in Angus cattle--in fact, I think someone posted it on SP a while ago and that it was someone well versed in the genetic defect problems. 

I'm not trying to point fingers at any specific breed.  My point is that no breed can claim to be immune from this type of problem and those who are giving fake parentage on their blood stock should be prosecuted when they are caught.  Unfortunately, someone can still claim that their animal is "defect free by parentage" and not get caught if there is no DNA or genetic defect test done.  As I said before, JMHO

 

[JSchroeder]

I'm far from an Angus lover.  Every time I've seen somebody asked for details about that rumor they say they heard it from somebody else and don't know what bull it was.

 

[simtal]

I bet many people wouldn't know the difference between hydro, curly, TH, and pHA

 

[DL]

  I've even heard of TH showing up in Angus cattle that supposedly have no Maine influence. 

what you are likely referring to is that some Angus calves thought and reported to have TH (prior to the identification of AM in the Angus breed as a lethal recessive defect) actually did not have TH but AM. In fact when tested for TH they did not have it, they did however parentally verify. There has been to date no documented case of TH in the Angus breed.

IMHO while AM and TH could look alike if you can't differentiate them from PHA you need to review the pictures and imagine a fat bloated waterlogged hot