PHA pedigree gurus......

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Barrel Racer

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I know we haven't discussed the search in awhile but......what would you say if I told you  NBB DALTON 50B reg #15 was a carrier?  If there is a connection between Draft Pick/Stinger/Payback I sure can't find it.  Just an FYI I finally got a good result for Inox and he is clean.  Happy hunting guys!!    ;D
 

red

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Oh sure Barrel Racer, throw the dogs a bone! (dog)

Dalton's a carrier. So does that make which parent one?

I need a nap!

Red
 

DL

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Barrel Racer said:
I know we haven't discussed the search in awhile but......what would you say if I told you  NBB DALTON 50B reg #15 was a carrier?  If there is a connection between Draft Pick/Stinger/Payback I sure can't find it.  Just an FYI I finally got a good result for Inox and he is clean.  Happy hunting guys!!    ;D

I vote for UNIVERS 15 - I'll have to pull out all those old pedigrees that have sat for a while but I believe he is the connection.......he is Paramount's grand dad -

Thanks Barrel Racer - more fun for the weekend! Have a good one, I think Telos and Joe Boy will be on this one like glue - probably xxcc too ;D

ps I don't think Payback has a "real" pedigree so we need to pretty much ignore him; there is a big hole on the bottom of Stingers pedigree (if it is real) that could contain the dirty does.......
 

xxcc

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along with knowing Dalton is dirty, more importantly, it is now known that both 81E and Bar U J Allen are clean.

What I don't like is that this blows a whole in my theory on the fact that this was a problem of origin north of the English Channel, rather than French.

I guess I'm undecided, it's either Univers or Turquino.  We'll have to look, I'm not sure there's anything out there short or Cette-La that traces to Turqino, but not Univers.

hasta manana (there's a tilda on that n)
 

red

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I e-mailed Joe Boy on the results. He had surgery on his hands or wrist so hasn't been on lately. Am sure he'll like the update.

Red
 

xxcc

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Ivry (and Bresil) trace to Turquino and not Univers.  Border Creek Future was just tested to be PHAF and he traces to only Turquino via Bresil.  There is some Ivry semen left in Canada, but it is limited and no it's not in KLH's inventory.
 

Telos

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Great news! Another important piece of the puzzle,but that opens it up for Duke Of Heaven, Prairie Blizzard and other NBB Univers 15 ancestors being suspects.

So where is RSCC Roots getting his carrier status from? Could it possibly be Midas? Polleroid goes back to Univers15 through OCC Angel Lady, but he's clean. Bar U J Allen is clean, too. This basically leaves Midas which goes back to JB Miss 785, a NBB Dalton daughter, unless Root's pedigree is just incorrect. I would be shocked if Midas is a carrier along with probably many other people, but he does go back to NBB Dalton. How could he have slipped through the cracks this long?

What I think is ironic is that Draft Pick's sire goes back to Paramount, NBB Dalton through Midas and Turquino. He tested PHA free. Draft Pick acquired his carrier status from  his damn which goes back to Paramount only.

 

aj

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I kind of lost tract of the shorthorn side of the deal. It's all about stinger as I understand it. Windstar and suds are carriers etc. etc.. I don't know that any cattle(shorthorn) have it not going back to stinger. Although hs nobodies fool is like a grandaughter to Paramount(a carrier). Apparently nobodies fool was clean, or else cates would be loaded with it. I doubt that big of a secret could be kept. I got a limited dose of pha through suds through windstar in my shorthorn herd. I have like three grandaghters of suds in my herd. But one grandaughter had a son that I really liked that came up th free and pha positive. So I had to dump him. Thus I think there is a favorable look to pha calves. My pha calf was real deep ribbed. So if nobodies fool was a big ole framed cow maybe she wasn't pha positive. Long live the red white and roan! (clapping) I assume that most of the shorthorn problem is with the double stuff cattle as he was pha positive as well as being th positive.
 

DL

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hey aj - the new wonderful ASA search is dead so I can look up the WIndstar pedigree and although I know it is somewhere in a drawer....does he trace to Stinger? I remember that Stingers pedigree is different on the AMAA and ASA web sites (imagine that) it is the maternal grandsire (I believe) Touchdown on the AMAA (who is clean) and Silver Dollar on the ASA - so makes ya wonder how accurate the Stinger pedigree is ....I think you are right thought - much of the issue in the red white and roan is with the Doubles - much but not all - thinking about those pedigrees again is like dusting off cobwebs! ;D
 

aj

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Windstar goes back to stinger. Eskimo Joe is a carrier and he goes back to stinger. Warhorse,double vision,doublestuff,windstar,suds are carriers that I know of and they all go to stinger.X-ray vision is a double carrier I believe.Bookie,Mindales teddy bear,bad moon rising,kool,okie dokie, are carriers going to stinger. There is alot of epinal in shorthorn pedigrees but he is pha clean so that is good. New age,doc holiday go back to stinger.Phildon,the lucky charm cow line,go back to stinger.Cunia is clean of everthing but monkey mouth. I have actually had a shorthorn monkey mouth through the cunia factor. I kinda forgot things also since it has been so long but I have a notebook of stuff. One thing I think will be interesting to watch is the Durham red deal. You have to test th free to register as durham reds. Now what about the pha deal. I doubt the national shorthorn board has the guts to require a pha test also for durham reds. Jungles is the only one on there with integrity. Either that or they are so showring orientated that they don't have a clue what pha could do to the real world cattle. I guess we will see what cagwin decides on that deal ;)
 

Jill

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I guess in my mind I don't see haw they can not require PHA free also as a lot of the PHA carriers are shorthorn and double carriers??  Doesn't make any sense to me to require one but not the other.
 

xxcc

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I am not a shorthorn breeder, but with the red and white maines that i have, i have often entertained the idea of crossing my cows with shorthorns.  i may be a little old school in my thinking, but i believe that crossbreeding needs to be done with tact involving pure strains.  maybe some of this thought stems from the trouble we are having with modern day "purebreds" in the maine and shorthorn breeds.

that statement in hand (i am not familiar with the shorty regs right now, so this statement may be moot), but i think there should be two requirements to register a "durham red" animal, an animal must have one parent that is an asterisk free purebred shorthorn and a parent that is an AA Red Angus (or whatever the purest strain requirement is - equivalent to a parentage verified fullblood Maine in canada).  This would require pure strains to be crossed.

The other requirement would be to attain asterisk free purebred status, that a purebred shorthorn animal shall test BOTH PHA and TH free, as well as meeting the breedup criterion that the animal has been bred the way it should be to loose the asterisk "status," thus attaining purebred status.

I feel this would ensure that if the Durham Red breed is a success, that it would be started with the best foot forward.
 

aj

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I may be wrong but I think when the board narrowly approved the appendix program it was stated once a * always an*. There was a movement to eliminate the * after certain criteria was met a year or so ago. I don't know what happened to it. I think the only breeds that don't have appendix programs are angus,herford, and that might be it. Some one on the board claims that there is various degree's of chi and holstein in angus and some simmental in herfords anyway. Purity is a concern. I keep thinking pha will show up in red angus cause someone was monkying around with some of the red pha cattle in a breeding program. I overheard a limi breeder say onetime that he was using warhorse on his purebred limi's to increase depth of rib and hair. I would think that with dna technology availble it would be eaiser to police stuff like that. How will breeds handle it. I once heard that maines and shorthorns dna was close and it was hard to seperate problems. But say a touch of chi in a shorthorn would stand out in a glare on dna samples. (dog) (dog) (dog)
 

xxcc

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in regard to the * in shorties, I was just going off memory.  about five years ago, i seriously looked at double registering all of my eligible red and white Maines as 3/4 Shorthorn.  My memory tells me that at that time, after either 4 or 5 crosses with a non-* PB, an animal became a non-* PB, ie. cow 701 would be a 3/4 with a * her calves sired by PB Shortie bull (PBSB) would result in a 7/8 appendix calf, then those 7/8 females bred to PBSB2 would have calves that were 15/16 PB with a *, then after 2 more such breedings, the resultant animal would loose the *.  In essence, the 63/64 calf sired by a PB, with solely PB influenced genetics, would be as pure as a "fullblood."  Now what I've been told is that in the 70s, that the original appendix breeding resulted as so - if an F1 started a tree, then after 4 more successive matings sired by fullbloods, then the resultant animal should be genetically similar to a fullblood.  This is where the Maine and Simmentals required a PB bull to be 15/16, while the female only need be 7/8 to achieve PB status.

In my opinion, by rights, a Maine should only have halfblood status in the Shorthorn breed as Maines originated from the Durham and Mancelle.

This also contributes to Red's question, I've been told that genetics removed 5 generations from a parent or bloodline are considered outcross.  Also, genetics need to run parallel rather than form an X in a pedigree, because an X will ultimately result in a terminal animal.  I will give examples of this, but the basis or these statements is knowledge handed down that was provided at Curtiss Breeders seminars in the 70s.

Here a 5 generation example.
- in 1971 a cow sired by Bysantin was born, two years later she has a calf by Cunia, then the 3/4 has a calf by Epinal, then the 7/8 has a calf by Iralin.  Then Iralin daughter was bred to Etula.  The animal would be a 15/16 (which is irrelevant), but could then freely be bred back to Bysantin genetics.  The issue is that the Novino genetics are not 4 or 5 generations apart which falls into linebreeding, but since Etulas MGS is Novino and Epinals PGS is Novino, they are parallel, so it's "OK."

The X example - breed a Pannell's Direct Draft son to an animal that comes from the 4072 family.

This is barnyard knowledge based on real life experience.  I have no documentation to support this, I just know it holds true and if someone can point me to actual documentation that discusses or supports this, I am open to it.

Also a comment on the Angus and Hereford comments.  It is known among Angus breeders that Holstiens were used in the 50s to add milk to Angus cattle, consequently, I think it effected their dispositions too.  In the Hereford world, one known example was a bull by the name of Titan.  It was actually discovered who the Simmental sire was.  Titan was a registered Hereford bull that was pulled from the books as was any of his registered ancestors.
 

aj

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I don't know why an x would be a terminal animal. Linebreeding would be a great way to test for defects.New ones will pop up.
 

DL

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aj said:
Is Dalton in any shorthorn pedigree's?

I sure haven't run into him, however, it is my understanding that prior to the appendix program there were some number of R&W Maine bulls used without official recognition of them on the papers - so who knows - he may have made a surreptitiously entry into the breed  :'(
 
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