Positioned for the future...

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Telos

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This is perhaps a loaded question, but I know almost everyone has their favorite breed of beef cattle and was wondering about your thoughts regarding the future of your favorite breed.  Is your breed headed in the right direction for the demands ahead?  What measures could be taken for improvement?  Why will your particular breed contribute to real value beef production? Will composites be linebred and become a breed in itself?
 

shortyjock89

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IL
Shorthorns, oh Shorthorns...we have alot of work to do.  We don't appeal to the commercial cattleman, we have TH and PHA to deal with, and we have very small numbers as far as registered cattle go.  That being, said we do a couple of things well, one of them being show ring presence.  I feel that we are the #1 breed in terms of upper-end show cattle.  This alone is not enough to sustain us as a serious breed in the world cattle market.  We, as a breed need to find ways to move forward by finding ways to improve the commercial sector of our breed, primarily promoting our bulls as bulls that can add value to the commercial herd of the U.S. We can achieve this, I believe, by bringing back some older-type bulls (such as Gold Spear). We don't need to necessarily chase numbers, because this could be our downfall too. Certain Angus, and to an extent, certain Hereford breeders have shown us that.  We have to find a way to breed an easy fleshing, long lasting cow that is free of genetic defects, and she has to be eye appealing.  I think that she should even have the ability to be bred to a "clubby" bull and produce top-end show calves, as well as raise heavy calves.  I know that this is alot to ask of a breed so steeped in politics and the show ring focus, but if we don't do this, where will we be in 10 years? 20? 50?
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Big shock here but Red Angus is my breed. We are very commercialy geared right now. They excell in calving ease, maternal traits, reproductive traits and cross well with virtually any other breed or cross bred based cow herd. In short - most of them are good functional type of cattle. Hopefully we will be able to hire a new exec. secretary that will promote the breed as a whole and not have specific agendas that they try to implement. Our biggest hold back in the commercial market is the color blindness of the buyers of commercial feeder calves in some regions of the country. Composites have been around for many years and as long as someone thinks they can make money in that market, there will continue to be more variations bred. Every breed has it's great cattle as well as it's junk cattle and of course the middle of the road cattle, I think as breeders we need to weed out the bottom end to a terminal market and not market them as cheap breeding stock to people that are new to the cattle business or don't want to spend the money to get into the better quality of stock. I'm always amazed that when cattle prices go up alot of the quality of what is for sale goes down. A reputation is built one sale at a time.
 

Cowboy

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Good topic Telos -- and it will probably have a hundred different ways to answer it.

I think we are all -- to a degree any way -- guilty of making our own personal cows fir OUR desires, meaning they look like WE want them to -- with the second guilt being  what will see to others and what THEY also like.

If we as breeders can all agree on making the one PERFECT final product - which is what's for DINNER, then we will indeed be successful. Sure, I have my own prefferences as to what is standinf in the pasture -- if they don't please me, they probably don't get the chance to prove themselves like others would. Is that wrong ??? I don't know -- it may be wrong in my herd, but might be right every where else.

I love the fact that WE can have diversity -- that we can, with a simple wave of an A-I gun, make any combination of cow we want. That is good, but also dangerous. In my view today -- I simply feel there are WAY too many instances where a good cow is bred to the WONDER BULL that just sired some champion 50 grand steer. That does not equal being a breeder -- it equals being a multiplier. Some times that works, more times than not it won't -- not for very long.

We do need the luxury of choice - that is for sure. I kind of wish that it was easier to make the perfect cow -- one that fits ALL environments all the time. Easy keeping, easy breeding, good mother, good milker -- gentle, would have a great carcass if hung fat, and would last for years with no trouble. Not too much to ask for is it?? hehehe

There are a few breeds and crosses that would come close to this -- we all have a few cows within our own herds that do, not all will. Change??? The only way we can be on target for tomorrow is to know what the market wants then.  When we can foresee the future - say in years not months -- then we as an industry can make the decisions to produce what will sell in 10 years. As it stands today -- we try to breed this year what will win next year -- and who will know what the markets (Can we say FORIEGN here??) will want or be in 10 years!!

I could go on, and on and on -- but I am even boring myself -- hehehe!!! Good post Telos, will wait to read the more inteligent posts -- wish I had a better set of answers. Very thought provoking post!

This is going to be a great year -- I can feel it!!

Terry




 

renegade

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Jun 30, 2007
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Caldwell, Idaho
I dont think that we can make OUR own programs work if OUR cattle arent working for us. Dont breeders (not multipliers ;)) try every year to improve their herd,their next calf crop, their future? The only way they can do that is to make our cows into what we want them to be. If i want to show a purebred calf crop i cant mix commercial animals, even if that commercial animal is better on the dinner table there is no way that the show ring is gonna look at much more than the eye appeal of the animal (i may not have worded that right but i am talking about things like lameness and other qualities that wouldnt allow most of those animals to make it in a feeder operation).

Of course in the perefect world ;) all cattle breeders, not just seperate associations, would strive to make a better steak not just a better show animal. Really we wouldnt even need breed associations because superior steak making cattle would rise to the top and other breeds would be forgotten, eventually losing the good qualities that they had to offer to the beef industry.

That is like the black craze and the CAB program, where has it left us? With a lot of black cattle who's quality has suffered ... in my opinion... and while most of the industry was striving to raise black hided cattle or to make their breed black (i.e. herefords, salers...) the qualities of those non black cattle were getting left behind, but i think that the industry is moving forward now and good quality breeds are making a come back. You can see very apperently at the local level, three years ago you could look down the aisles at my fair and you make see two animals tops that were not black and now you find herefords, shorthorns, beefmasters, salers and the list goes on the black is still obvious but no dominant.

This was because several youth got into cattle showing around here and by making and improving their herds to what they wanted, they have shown a lot of people around here what "non black" cattle can do. By making their herds their own they have, i feel, helped the cattle industry just that much more.

This is all just my opinion and it doesnt really hold a lot of weight compared the people like cowboy and road warrior because i havent been around for as long, accomplished as much, or earn as much respect as them but it is a humble opinion, take it with a grain of salt im just a kid.  :)
 

aj

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I've often wondered if we could market cattle directly to consumers directly somehow. If the genestar stuff works you could load up genetics that are tender and marble. Then if you fed and harvested the calves, hang them alittle longer, and then market them as premium meats(halves and wholes) to people say in the suburbs or restaurants at a premium. I actually started a  business plan to buy a little beef locker but it is really hard to make a go of it due to regulations and etc.. It seems like the target for u.s. premium beef goes up as carcasses improve and the growere doesn't really get rewarded financially anyway. They used to say that 50% of the usa's beef cow herds have 50 head of cows or less. I'm not sure that the prefered 3 way cross is feasible  in these herds. Alot of times things like droughts, feed supplies, and other things make sell offs and buy backs a common practice. I think composites would work in these scenarios for sure. Where will we be 100 years from now? Thats really scarey.
 

TPX

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Sep 2, 2007
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Greaand t Question

I will start by talking about the commercial cattle that we run I feel that this part of the industry is going to have to go through alot of changes and soon.  If the industry want to keep the ranchers we need to get more then 400 to 500 bucks a calf if the prices dont change I see even more people selling out next year.  The second thing that needs to change is the feeding program I dont think that thw industry will survive if we continue to put hormons in our cattle, I dont like organic beef but I do like the idea of hormone free beef do to the fact that almost every magazine that you read says that red meat is bad for you do to the hormones put into it.

Next is the canadian shorthorns.  I see this breed going backwords fast,  The costs are high due to the whole herd registry. I know why the assoc does it  b/c they need the money but what are they doing with this money cause to me they dont promote the breed at all. Also th is a problem up here and we have a hard time getting tests done and the assoc doesnt seem to know about it and the fact the our secretary wasnt told that we need to phone sek for results and not doctor beaver is just one example.  Also it seems that alot of the people on the board dont know to much about the commercial industry and its hard to get through to them. And lastly we all just need to learn to get along.

Last is the canadian red angus.  This breed is booming and it works great in the commercial industry.  We find the people extremely nice and willing to help you out and always willing to talk about there program (oh ya that reminds me ask some shorthorn people about there program and see what kinda answer you get).  The assoc. does alot of work with angus tags for the commercial industry which covers both black and red angus.  This breed is where we will be staying for along time as we see it as the most potential and great people.
 

itk

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aj said:
I've often wondered if we could market cattle directly to consumers directly somehow. If the genestar stuff works you could load up genetics that are tender and marble. Then if you fed and harvested the calves, hang them alittle longer, and then market them as premium meats(halves and wholes) to people say in the suburbs or restaurants at a premium. I actually started a  business plan to buy a little beef locker but it is really hard to make a go of it due to regulations and etc.. It seems like the target for u.s. premium beef goes up as carcasses improve and the growere doesn't really get rewarded financially anyway. They used to say that 50% of the usa's beef cow herds have 50 head of cows or less. I'm not sure that the prefered 3 way cross is feasible  in these herds. Alot of times things like droughts, feed supplies, and other things make sell offs and buy backs a common practice. I think composites would work in these scenarios for sure. Where will we be 100 years from now? Thats really scarey.

I didn't realize that Brewster had suburbs. I always thought you guys were the suburbs of Goodland. Urban sprawl must really be getting out of controll in NWK. (clapping) I know around here if the population growth doesn't slow down we will get up to almost 400 people soon. As far as the shorthorn breed goes we can either go up are down. As far as the show ring goes we can't get any better and as far as commercial acceptance goes we can't get much worse. The future of our breed depends on the stayability and focus of current breeders. We bought our first shorthorn cows 10 years ago. Cates, Cagwin, Schrags, Wakaru and Bakenhus are the only breeders who had sales then and now, and Wards has gone through numerous changes. Breeder stayability is crucial for breed identity and right now we don't have that. It will also be interesting to see if Sullivan's stay in the breed for the long haul or if they just jump in and out like they did with the limmy's.
 

knabe

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Telos said:
Will composites be linebred and become a breed in itself?

they always have been, and will always be.

all breeds have genetic defects, always have, always will.

premiums are created by a real or perceived benefit
 

Show Dad

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I guess I will target the two breeds we belong to.

First, Red Angus, It is truly the new color of Angus. Quality is deep in the breed and its focus on the commercial cattleman is spectacular and refreshing. As the demand for RA genetics continue to increase so will the need for diligence to keep the quality up and focus on the consumer. Its next challenge, IMHO, is to increase its base by making the small breeder (less than 50 head) welcomed and supported.

This is where the "Blacks" as a organization has the upper hand. The AAA is being strained by it's own success. The amount of poor quality breeding stock is increasing while the top end isn't really improving either. If the "market" shifted is demand in a different way I fear the AAA would have a hard time changing. I think it could but might loose it's dominate roll as a breed. I see this as many small breeders around me injecting the "Reds" into their cow herd. They like the support that the association provides but they believe they can improve their herds by going red. And as the RA grows (and especially if they go after the small breeder) this will be a growing problem.

So what do I see for the future: Any breed that its sole claim to legitimacy is the show ring will suffer greatly if there is any economic slow down. While the breeder of functional replacement or commercial cattle may not roll in the dough he will be more likely to survive until the economics are more favorable.
 

Rocky Hill Simmental

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Aug 22, 2007
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Missouri
I'm rather new to purebred simmentals. I bought 3 heifers who are half sisters and they're wonderful.

My family has always raised commercial cattle and after I started showing, I decided I wanted a registered breed. I thought about several breeds when I finally considered simmental. They were tall, had good muscling, and can be about any color under the sun. The grand champion simmental was tied next to my heifers one year and she was so sweet, which made me like simmentals even more. Not to mention, some of our best looking commercial cows came from a red and white simmental bull we used to have.

Everyone is crazy about black hided cattle. I know a lot of people who have angus bulls because they want black hided calves but are starting to miss the taller, heavier muscled calves. My uncle was one of them and I told him I was going to buy a black simmental heifer and he became interested so I bought a heifer and he bought a bull and sold his angus. He pulled a few calves sired by his angus bull but hasn't had any trouble with his simmental yet.  ;)

A lot of people I have showed my 3 heifers and my uncle's bull to said they didn't know that simmentals could even be black. The breeder I bought my heifers from told me a lot about the breed and their benefits. He told me to paint a sign and hang it over my heifer's stall at the district fair. I did and people responded. I had several people ask me about the breed and why they were black and one "How do you know those aren't angus?" (lol - I can't believe it's not angus!) I had people who asked me about buying bulls and I haven't any had any calves on the ground from these 3 yet!  :D

Even though the black hides are helping sales they might be huritng the breed a little in the long run. Exotic breeds like simmentals are usually real muscular and breeding so much British and dairy into them can cut down on their muscling. I was told if their calves have no muscle, cull them. Just look at FB fleckvieh bulls compared with PB simmental bulls. The fleckviehs have more muscling.  A lot of breeders are breeding the meat out of them.

I'm trying to keep as much muscle as I can in my PB simmentals so hopefully I can. The heifers I selected are real wide in their hindquarters and have a lot of body length. I'm breeding them all to the same bull too so they should stay pretty uniform (all my heifers are half sisters so the calves will share similar DNA).

Overall the future of simmentals seems pretty bright. I think after more people find out about them they'll get to be excepted. When my uncle first bought his bull, his neighbor asked him what made him want to get a hereford and when he told him it was a simmental, his neighbor said he didn't know anything about simmentals. But they do get people interested. Like I posted earlier, a lot of people I've never even met wanted to know about the breed and if people are interested, they'll get buyers.

I'm not an expert or anything - I've only had simmentals for 2 years but that's just what I've noticed. I used to only have commercial beef cows.
 

aj

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ITK...It's all about population concentration. The state of kansas has what 2.3 million people? Wichita has 500,000 and the kansas city area has 700,000 if I remember right. Both areas are a 6 hour drive away. We are 3 a half hours from denver. As I understand it people are commuting to denver as far away from Stratton colorado. Denver is not really to far off. But you have a problem with interstate commerce. Its been a while but I believe that llc's aren't recognized across the state line. Then some meat inspectors are federal and some are state and that determines if you can haul meat across state lines. There are 1 million people in the greater Denver area and 2 million in the foothills(half of which are from californicate,but thats another story). So if the secret to bussiness is location, location, location and you have a good economy there is potential to do business in the foothills. There are guys that have hauled a semi load of small alfalfa bales to the the burbs and come home with enough CASH to buy a tractor! I just hate to see the big packers get a choke hold on the locker industry. The key to good meat is hanging it an extra week. But the big packers are so mush more efficient because it is blood on the floor and out the door. But you need the premium to hang it an extra week and so forth. I'm not against the organic deal because it is a selling point and if you are dealing with a mom and pop system you have that option alot of times. K-states offensive center is from goodland just remember that. His grandaddy is one ole tough booger.  :)
 

itk

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The greatest words in the history of agriculture are "horse hay." Isn't it great getting three times what hay is worth because the buyers are absolutely clueless. Its kind of like selling cedar trees from Eastern Kansas to your neck of the woods. They are a nuisance here but I know my uncle makes numerous trips from Goodland to get them and take them back to sell as windbreaks. I don't know if it would ever happen but with changes in consumer demands freezer beef could become a major factor in the beef industry. The large packers won't meet the demands of the growing number of consumers who want a higher quality product that is hormone free. However, freezer beef fits the needs of these consumers because it is not economical for large packers to age the meat and do background checks on such a large scale. Where a small operation could do this without much trouble especially if the animals being slaughtered were home raised.
 

JbarL

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great topic for me......as most know, i started a young herd of Pb angus last march....original  plans almost 2 years ago was to incorporate with a partner in his
Maine operation....my what a difference 18 months can make.....needless to say, i was fortunate enough to find this site and my medical questions on pah that i was searching for ended here at sp.....the genetics description and "politics" of the Maine breed has been well represented here by alot of folks....my lack of knowledge of the breed and "armature" status of my small project, coupled with my monotone, sometimes condescending souding comments and questions, are not meant with any malace or even negative direction to anyone.....i quess i've been a bit impatient.....i will be breeding back (3) about july, and have had plenty of time to consider "jbarl futures".....my main concern 6/8 months ago for me was the lack of direction the association was headed, and a post i made that was "supposed" to help me in understanding "everone elses position, and thoughts"......turned into something kinda stinky that i didnt, and still dont really understand.........but in reflection..not "one" person expressed a concern that the association was behind the curve on pah as far as quelling the genetics issues in there group.  with some of the disagreements among alot of experienced/dedicated/honest/smart/professional folks have volleyed with on this site, i just thought that the association should have been more active and spoken.  that was the reason, "i" opted out.  i just didn't want to jump in a mess that the registry had not seem to even have address at the time. (6/8 months ago)...they now seem to be on a more aggressive path, and i  am one who thinks this will make a difference in my decisions on the future, and not sure how many other folks  are in my position, cause many of you have been in/out/around the maines for many years. I'm lucky because of the timing of my herd and the op pertunity to "get in" or "stay away"..from the blood entirely.   what i have learned:    1 ).. .. you cant plant corn in the morning and have roast a'neaeers for dinner....my "urgency" and  "impatience" in my quest for answeres/ and decisions on the Maine and pah issue, was probally where the "tone" i seem to have expressed reguarding this issue....for that i apologize to anyone whom received it that way.    2).....i believe that 1 person cant do what many can....reminds me of the old movie  "scavenger hunt"....the quest for a hugh inheritance fortune between 4 families....and in the end basically there was enough money for all to of have split and and live comfortably....the moral was as they were cutting each others throats to "have it all"..... loving families turned to hatred.....i have meet some great folks, and decided to work with folks with other Pb  breeds in a variety of flavors, maines included....maybe not "own" a popular cocktail, but be proud of supplying  a part of the ingredients........heart and lungs are my main concern in all future directions for me....right now i'm anticipating my first "crop" of calves .....at the end of the month and first of feb.....and have been a bit consumed with fears of birth problems/weather/ everthing...being an absent owner has been a bit stressful at times.....i get these three on the ground and i'll relax abit....and then i can start "thinking" about futures...thanks to all for being patient with me   jbarl
 

kanshow

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Currently, I think Simmentals are in a good postition for the future both commercially and in the show ring.    There is a large enough gene pool and enough diversity in type that can be drawn upon to change up when the need arises.    The % registry allows for even more genetic diversity.  Most Simmi breeders have been pretty progressive and quick to accept new advances - DNA testing, etc. to keep on the front line.  Another thing I see is that even when they are pushing the show ring type, they still have a calf that can go out and work in a commercial environment. 
 

knabe

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aj said:
The key to good meat is hanging it an extra week.

i can back this up with facts.  i posted this on another website.  it's pretty easy to get tenderness gene results by that extra week and on down the line.  pretty amazing.

in the paper
"association of a single nucleotide polymorphism in the calpastatin gene with carcass and meat quality traits of beef cattle" by schenkel et al there is a table. remember, this is only for one gene and measures all 3 allele types. also, remember, a tough steak is rated as one that is 5.7 kg on shear force test or 12.54 pounds.  you can see that if you have the CC allele, you barely have a tender steak for this one gene at two days, but at JUST 7 days hanging, the worst carcass is better than the best carcass at two days!  even more dramatic at 14 days.  i haven't seen any data on carcasses with homozygosity at all three alleles compared to the no star carcasses.  can one have negative tenderness?  in the end, perhaps it just means one can save on energy in the locker and have the best tenderness at 7 days the same as 21 days.  pretty amazing.

here is the table. x is shear force at days post mortem
y is the genotype and units are kg force. (variation not shown)

        2    7    14  21

CC 5.55 5.03 4.23 3.67
CG 5.81 5.13 4.39 3.95
GG 6.06 5.41 4.44 3.87

they have a unit called SFLavg which kinda groups the differences altogether in one number, but i like the table as it shows, as usual, a practice window to excel.

also of note, one could purchase lower cost, low star carcasses and sell them as premium simply by aging and get a similar product depending on how the star carcass was handled. REMEMBER, this is only for one gene.


so it would seem that all you have to do is age the carcass 7 days to get under the magic 5.7 kg. that's a huge difference between on the 2 and 7 day time points, but dramatically gets smaller the longer you age. no one really ages that long without a little hassle (21 days), ie drier aging units to remove moisture so mold doesn't build up, wrapping the carcass with cheesecloth to make mold removal easier. also, quartering the carcass wastes an excellent steak. someone told me yesterday that they would feed carcasses at cost for the profit they make off of offal for a period of time to hold them over during tough price points. a guy at the feed store told me the other day he had one age for a month, but it had lots of mold, but after cleaning it up, he said it was the most tender beef he had ever had. going to go ask a local butcher today about their dry aging.

ps, there is one other paper i am trying to read which i lost for other markers with real data. airhead moment. i'll try and find that one.


PS again.  would like to know if this is what safeway does with ranchers reserve and if it's cheaper for them to purchase the cheaper carcasses, hand required number of days and sell it at a premium called "ranchers reserve" rather than paying up front for better quality carcasses.
 

Bawndoh

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Alright, I would agree, being a Red Angus breeder, that the breed has MANY awesome traits that the industry needs.  I would also agree that Simmentals are lookin hot for the future.  I have a few rants of my own, that may get addressed, but may just fall under the "breeders breed what works for THEM" category.  I do not understand, how the Angus breed, started off with mature bulls and cows maturing at about 4 feet tall, and maximum 1500lbs???  NOW, there are some mature COWS that range from 1800-2200lbs.  These are COWS.  How in the hell is this still considered and "Angus" trait if the breed has double in size in 50 years?  Would a lowline still be a lowline if they double in size in 50 years?? 
Also, I love how Simmentals, Charolais, Herfords, and Maine's are looking these days, but study what is really going on.  All the breeds are trying to look the same...especially when you look at Championship Photo's from shows.  The Charolais, looks the same as the Maine, looks the same as the Black Angus.  The same body type, the same volume, the same frame.  Think of putting together black heifer calves from all of these breeds I have mentioned.  Sometimes it honestly gets a bit tough picking apart the breed of each.  What I really mean is, the Exotics are trying to decrease extremeties, and the Contenentials seem to be increasing extremeties.  This leaves them meeting in the middle. 
Please be nice to me, but help me out here!!
 

renegade

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Bawndoh, i agree. that what i was kinda saying when i said if everyone is chaseing the same thing (which is now the best ribbon, not the best steak) then we dont really need breed associations because everyone is the same, only color to tell them apart. I do like where herefords are going though because i see more of the foundation stuff like remitall coming back so the cattle have a shorter, stouter frame like they use too.
 

Bawndoh

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Thanks...!
What does everyone else think of this?  Or should I start a new topic?
 

kanshow

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Bawndoh  -  I think the size increase is the result of a whole bunch of things..  nutrition, better health, and genetics.    The human race in general is taller now than say 100 years ago.

That said, I'd venture a guess that this is one reason so many of us hang onto semen on bulls that have gone out of vogue and are no longer used.  You just never know when you might want to incorporate lost genetics back into your herd. 
 
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