Problems at County Fair

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ROAD WARRIOR

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Lets face the facts - 90% of the "judges" judging today have someone pulling their strings. I know many of these "judges" personally from being out on the show road for the last 30 some odd years. County fairs are pretty mild compared with most open shows. I have very little respect for a lot of nationally known judges from seeing the political shenanigans in the ring year after year. It would make things alot easier for these judges if you handed them a piece of paper stating who the heifer was bought from, what her pedigree is and what her EPDs are etc, etc. In todays show ring I'm not sure that being able to sort the cattle is even a skill that is required. Just have the proper pedigree with the right EPDs and the right people either on the halter or following them in the ring and you will be in the hunt. With that said I do have a tremendous amount of respect for the 10% that still sort the cattle for what they are and have enough kahonies to use them irreguardless of the politics behind them or against them. Off my soap box - Road Warrior out!
 

oakbar

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Wouldn't it be interesting if the EPDs were used as a factor in "Breeding Heifer Shows"!!  Obviously, the breeds must think they are important becuase we spend thousands and thousands of dollars and a what of a lot of breeder's time getting the info for them.  Maybe we should really make them meaningful!!
 

itk

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Is Dr. Hunsley on your fairboard? I was wondering what he has been up to since he left the ASA.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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itk said:
Is Dr. Hunsley on your fairboard? I was wondering what he has been up to since he left the ASA.
I wouldn't be surprised if he and Bob Hough are in cahoots since Bob got ousted from the R A Assn.!
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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oakbar said:
Wouldn't it be interesting if the EPDs were used as a factor in "Breeding Heifer Shows"!!   Obviously, the breeds must think they are important becuase we spend thousands and thousands of dollars and a what of a lot of breeder's time getting the info for them.   Maybe we should really make them meaningful!!

Actually Oakbar it's not very interesting at all. It's just a contest to see who can manipulate the number game the best. Under the former administration of the RA breed, EPDs were the Holy Grail. If you had the right set of numbers you could win, reguardless of how unsound or unusable your animal was. I got tired of seeing really good cattle with average EPDs get beat by really bad animals with stellar EPDs. In a perfect world EPDs would be a meaningful selection tool but in this world as long as there is a buck to be made certain people will continue to manipulate the data turned in.RW
 

oakbar

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OK!! OK!!  It was just a thought!!  Many of you have been in the cattle business much longer than I and have seen all the ideas, etc. come and go.  My suggestion was not that EPDs would be the only factor considered but that it would used for a portion of the overall score or even used as Rate of Gain numbers are used in some market shows.  It just seems such a huge part of all breed programs to not be considered at all when you are picking "breeding" champions.  If for instance you got an automatic knock down in placing for a calving ease EPD that was negative it might make a few more people at least consider using calving ease bulls but I suppose there would be a way around that too!!  We may have genetic markers soon that would tell us a little more about some things that could be used but there again anytime you make a rule people will figure out eighteen different ways around it.  Like I said---Just a random thought from an Iowegian!!
 

Shorthorn_Junkie

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I heard another breeder say one time that he wished they would have a show, where they judged the animal based on performance. 

 

itk

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One problem with that. The honesty of the person reporting the birthday. It is already a problem, with a performance based show it would be even worse.
 

Shorthorn_Junkie

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itk said:
One problem with that. The honesty of the person reporting the birthday. It is already a problem, with a performance based show it would be even worse.

You're right. 

It would be a problem.  I don't see a show like that ever happening in all honesty. 
 

renegade

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we have trouble all the time. the thing is now and this is really sad it is not what your cattle look like but who you are and who you know. We went and showed at the idaho herford heifer show and sale. well in the show we were placed 3 and 4 in our class. well at the sale they offered 850 a peice and this was a fake offer. i have been showing for years and the thing i notice in all animals is your crap unless you are a top person, so on so forth. just thought i would put in my word and say that it doesn't matter where you are or what you are showing everything now days is political. to me this is just stupid but like i said that is just my opinion.
thanks Renegades Sister
 

Bawndoh

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The only place where it makes sense to have a show like this is a fed steer project. 
Also, I dont consider Angus, Herford, etc to be performance breeds in the first place....if you want performance and rate of gain, buy Simmental!!
For a performance show to be fair, all animals would have to be fed the same, cared for the same, come from sires and dams with the same frame score and breed, etc. 
Doesnt seem plausable at all.
 

aj

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I hate the wda deal in like pen bull shows in denver. It seems like those cattle get pushed so hard they always have feet problems a year or two later.
 

SWMO

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Sounds like to me that you need to run for the Fair Board and push for changes in how your county fair functions.

I sometimes wonder if we should even be on the fair board when our kids are of the age to show.  I believe in fairness to all and sit on our fair board but I do get the feeling that we are resented because our kids do well every year at the county fair.

The reason that our kids do well is that they work hard and go to some major shows every year and have developed great showing and fitting skills as the result.  People tend to forget the year that my son didn't even make the sale because his steer was as unsound as I have ever seen one.  That is just one of life's lessons.  It is also one of life's lessons to know that everything is not always fair and that people will do anything to win (especially to have their kids win) :(.  it happens at every level of competition not just the county fair.

But look at how it made that individual look that interferred with the judge.  You can't tell me that the crowd didn't notice and comment. 

 

renegade

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any breed can be a show breed, just because they are not semitol does not mean they are not good animals. a performance show is to see who is doing the best job with their animals. it is fair because if you want to place you need to have good animals. the reson i was saying it was unfair was because i have seen people use steroids(not red handed but you can tell). good hardy performance animals come in every breed you may beleive yours is the best that is fine. but you don't need to dis every other breed and say they shouldn't even be considered performance animals. if this isnt the way you were trying to come off i apologize. i am not trying to sound rude but to me it just seemed like that if that cow isn't semitol it wasn't any good at all. once again if that wasn't the way you meant it to sound i apologize.

I wish i could run for our fair board but being underage i can not. i have seen it too many times a person with a big name is in the ring and wether their animal looks good or not they place over all the other cattle. i hate judges that look at the big names only and throw the rest of us who have worked our buts off just to get to the fair at the bottom of the class.
thanks
renegades sister
 

shortyjock89

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The post you're talking about wasn't meant to be disrespectful of other breeds.  There was a comparison made between British and Continental breeds.  If you can honestly say that you think that Angus, Hereford, or Shorthorn breeds are higher performing-meaning bigger animals, higher rate of gain...that sort of thing, then show me the data. The term "Performance" had nothing to do with the quality of an animal, only the traits that a certain breed, or group of breeds, brings to the table.  Continental breeds were brought to the U.S. to increase PERFORMANCE..higher weaning weights, bigger carcasses, LARGER animals.  It's said that certain Hereford cows were bred to Fleckvieh Simmental bulls in the 70's, and the calves were registered Hereford....because the market demanded performance. 

 

Bawndoh

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
The post you're talking about wasn't meant to be disrespectful of other breeds.  There was a comparison made between British and Continental breeds.  If you can honestly say that you think that Angus, Hereford, or Shorthorn breeds are higher performing-meaning bigger animals, higher rate of gain...that sort of thing, then show me the data. The term "Performance" had nothing to do with the quality of an animal, only the traits that a certain breed, or group of breeds, brings to the table.  Continental breeds were brought to the U.S. to increase PERFORMANCE..higher weaning weights, bigger carcasses, LARGER animals.  It's said that certain Hereford cows were bred to Fleckvieh Simmental bulls in the 70's, and the calves were registered Hereford....because the market demanded performance. 

You are absolutely right OFS.  That is what I meant.  I personally dont even own Simmentals!  LOL.  I am, however breeding my RA cows to Ebonys Trademark to add a teeny bit of bone, scale, and performance.  I have respect for all breeds of cattle.  You said it really well about the British vs. Exotic thing.  There are certainly "performance" cattle in every breed, but the performance breeds are Exotics.  Once again, they were bred and evolved to be performance cattle.  Hence the extra muscling, size, and scale.
 

GONEWEST

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Not sure where to start,lol.

Since we began with the county fair deal, I'll start there. "Someone said quit trying to be somebody and they won't resent you so much." I'm nominating that for the truest statement of the year. In the late 80's I had a Simmental heifer that was a division champion at the Canadian Agribition. At that time, it still may be, it was the largest Simmental show in the world. Against my better judgement, my dad wanted to take her to the local fair so that his friends from work would  be able to see her when they came to the fair. She stood 5th out of 6 in class in a 20 head show. Most of the local people involved either with the fair or showing were happier that I had lost than they would have been if they had won. That's just how people are at these little deals. I'd like to discuss the cheating part at the end of this dissertation.

In the late late 80's to mid 90's we were very active in open shows on a national level. The "politics". wrong birthdays, what ever you can imagine, it's there. It took me about a year to figure out that these are the "rules" of that game and I was not going to change them. And I was ok with that. At an open show there is a lot more to it than winning. There are people who get to see your cattle that would never see them other wise. A judge never bought a single animal from me, but there were lots sold in the barn before and after the show. And I learned that it made a difference who was leading that animal so I just made sure the right person was leading them. I'm a big boy and if you want to cheat me to win, have at it. May make me mad for a minute, but there's more to it for me than that.

And as for EPD's used in open shows, the Simmis do it now. It's asinine. It's pure stupidity. The same animals that would have won with out them win with them. It just takes longer as the judges have to figure a way to justify the way they used the EPD's. And how can anyone think that EPD's should be the deciding factor in a show when the accuracy ratings on EPD's of young cattle are so low???

But my hot button is for an adult to cheat a child. I have a friend in Iowa who called me last night. A jock who has been kicked out of the barn and arrested at our state show in 2007, had recently bought a heifer from him. This particular person is famous here for selling heifers WAY older than they are supposed to be. The truck came to pick up the heifer and deliver it to the jocks customer who happened to be in our state. Our heifers have to be born September 1, 2007  or later to show this year. this heifer is a late April, 2007. It makes my blood boil.

This years Champion steer failed his drug test (Lasix). No one had ever seen this steer before. He came in on a trailer with OK plates two days before the show. Our steers are supposed to be on farm by September 30 of the previous year. Except revoking the prize money and thus losing the steer, I don't believe any punishment will be meted out to the offenders??? What's up with that? Why not ban the whole bunch for life?? That's the only way to stop this crap.Why no punishment for  the ag teacher who had to sign off that the calf was indeed on the farm by September 30. Why not ban the whole family because the parents had to buy the calf and approve. It should be a privilege to be part of the program, not a right. It absolutely boggle my mind how "those in charge", could allow this. We will be DNA testing steers from now on, so that is one positive thing that has come from this.

Several years ago a particular person followed every calf he had sold  into the ring. Judge was a former judging team member this guy coached. He picked 'em all. Why the parents of every other child there allowed this man to escape with even the one arm he has baffles me.

Call me violent, radical, over reacting, ect. But people used to get tarred and feathered for doing things like that around here. How did we become so passive??? There is no accountability for these people or their actions. If that county fair staff member or that judge who reversed the calves had feared  accountability for their actions, it never would have happened. If you want to cheat me, I have no problem with that. I'm a big boy. But if you cheat my child, you'll be accountable. I guess it's a good thing that I have no children. To me, it'd be worth spending some time in the pokey to make sure that person thought twice about doing that again.

I'd love to hear some parents views on why they allow this to happen. We've become so passive, apathetic.  It's the reason our government is the way it is. We allow these people in Washington to do the things they do by either continuing to vote for them or not voting at all. WHY???
 

shorthorns r us

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GONEWEST said:
Several years ago a particular person followed every calf he had sold  into the ring. Judge was a former judging team member this guy coached. He picked 'em all. Why the parents of every other child there allowed this man to escape with even the one arm he has baffles me.

wow!  wonder who that was?  ;)

GONEWEST said:
We allow these people in Washington to do the things they do by either continuing to vote for them or not voting at all. WHY???

most of the opponents aren't worth voting for either!
 

Zdog

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Mar 21, 2008
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ROAD WARRIOR said:
Lets face the facts - 90% of the "judges" judging today have someone pulling their strings. I know many of these "judges" personally from being out on the show road for the last 30 some odd years. County fairs are pretty mild compared with most open shows. I have very little respect for a lot of nationally known judges from seeing the political shenanigans in the ring year after year. It would make things alot easier for these judges if you handed them a piece of paper stating who the heifer was bought from, what her pedigree is and what her EPDs are etc, etc. In todays show ring I'm not sure that being able to sort the cattle is even a skill that is required. Just have the proper pedigree with the right EPDs and the right people either on the halter or following them in the ring and you will be in the hunt. With that said I do have a tremendous amount of respect for the 10% that still sort the cattle for what they are and have enough kahonies to use them irreguardless of the politics behind them or against them. Off my soap box - Road Warrior out!
The other year we had a judge that was brought back to our fair by mostly one individual. That year the person that brought the judge back Won the heifer show and got third in the steer show with a so so steer. Its part of the game though and i suppose i still gotta deal with it.
 
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