Prop 2 In California

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Are you for this Prop

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • No

    Votes: 8 88.9%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9

txshowlamb

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
514
How many of you have read or heard bout it I think its crazy!!!!
http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/california_proposition2.asp
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
as slow as necessary.  remember, freedom is progressive.  it progressively is removed.  the march is towards the elimination of liberty towards stateism.  the only saving grace is that this election will compress the overreaching of the democratic party into a short enough time frame that some congresspeople will be voted out of office before they die, as essentially the democratic party is an oligarchy against liberty.
 

Bawndoh

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
720
This is what the Oprah show was about.  Im on the fence.  I dont think a pregnant animal should have restircted movement...as little as six inches back and forth.  I dont think laying hens should be packed 6 to a cage.  I dont necessarily think everything should be free range, but at least a little more freedom might help.  I dont see the harm in at least free ranging chickens for a few hours a day, and then putting them in the rest of the day.  I realize coyotes and other predators are an issue, but for gods sake Im sure a damn chicken has the right to run around for at least an hour a day.
 

txshowlamb

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
514
Yes true but I do know as I raise hogs sows (pregnant hogs) are put into a small crate due to the fact merely because they will kill their piglets they sit on them and crush them as if  there in a whats called a farrowing crate they cant get up and smash the piglets so its a win losse situation I guess it just depends on your view of things
 

txshowlamb

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
514
Yes it is still possible as when the sow goes to lay down she oesnt know where the piglets are sometimes they run under her and its too late but on 1 acre its less of a chance I guess by using the farrowing crates its just easire to keep track also when their on a acre lots of piggies dissapear
 

Hoof Hearted

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
85
Location
California
This one gets my dander up pretty fast. If we start having people who have no clue about production agriculture making laws to tell us how to run our business than our way of life will soon be gone. If prop 2  passes then EVERY layer operation in California will be forced out of business. Even the eggs that qualify for the free range label won't qualify for the prop 2 rules. You ask about if a sow will squish her piglets if she is on an acre of ground? Maybe not, but if they made that a law how much would pork cost? Nobody would be able to afford that much land to raise the hogs. The same is for the chickens, i have seen several layer operations that are totally underground. It works great with climate control and light control they get good results ith the layers, there is no way in hell they could let the thousands of chickens "outside for a while to stretch their wings" land costs and labor costs would make a dozon eggs be priced right out of consumers refrige.  Anybody having anything to do with large scale animal operations nomatter the specie knows that a comfortable animal will outgain, out produce and outlive a stressed animal. We go to great lengts to keep animals comfortable so they produce well for us. There are operators who don't put as much emphasis on this as others and they are usually not as profitable as those that do and are not in the business long term. Most consumers want a good quality, safe food product for a cheap price on the shelves at their grocery store, if they pass this prop they will unknowingly remove that from the shelves. If we don't nip this one in the bud it couldbe bad news for us all. Now I'll get off my soap box, any one else want a turn on it?
HH
 

justme

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
2,871
Location
Missouri
If I put a sow on an acre of land no she probably won't lay on her...but will the pig survive the cold and outdoor enviroment?  I think they'd get us for being cruel to the piglets for letting them out in the enviroment.  Its a darned if you do darned if you don't situation in my opinion. 
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
Bawndoh said:
This is what the Oprah show was about.  Im on the fence.  I dont think a pregnant animal should have restircted movement...as little as six inches back and forth.  I dont think laying hens should be packed 6 to a cage.  I dont necessarily think everything should be free range, but at least a little more freedom might help.  I dont see the harm in at least free ranging chickens for a few hours a day, and then putting them in the rest of the day.  I realize coyotes and other predators are an issue, but for gods sake Im sure a damn chicken has the right to run around for at least an hour a day.

i have sitting hens and built a few different size houses for them.  they chose the smallest boxes and hardly EVER move.

you may be damn sure a chicken has the right to move around for an hour, but in my experience, they don't exercise that right.

the public will exercise it's continual right to raise the price of everything and give rights to animals but NO rights to unborn children.  the left has NO COMPASSION for unborn children.  they care more about chickens and horses than they do humans.  it's disgusting and despicable.  i am becoming more and more divided from liberals perspectives and complete and total lack of comprimise on ANY issue.  i am damn sure that in a liberal's mind, there isn't a damn right conservatives have to anything.  this will lead to war, always has, always will.  the level of tolerance by the left for the right is completely zero.  way to go tolerant party.  the only diversity liberals envision, is diversity within their own world view. 

a little freedom from liberals might help.  for god's sake, i'm damn sure conservatives have the right to run around for at least an hour a day in the absence of a liberal.  for goodness sakes, illegal aliens have more rights to squat in your house than you do to keep them out.  wait till the guns are taken away, which will happen under a filibuster proof senate.

these comments are not directed at bawndoh, i just used the words to turn the issue around.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
Bawndoh said:
Will they still lay on them if they are on 1 acre??

bawndow, can you calculate the cost of pork for poor people with sows roaming around on 1 acre and the environmental damage that will cause?  this is the true goal of animal rights, to eliminate animal protein from human diet as slow as necessary.  many religious movements employ this method as the cause must outlive a normal human lifespan, which is why the movements are set up and motivated by emotion.  this movement is giving me a bowel movement.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
i lost 8 chickens, 1 rooster, 6 laying hens the other day from my neighbors dogs, who will be terminated when i catch them.  how's that for "free range" chicken rights.  will i be compensated?  why do i have to put up a fence to keep my stupid neighbors dogs out at night?  why aren't they in a pen.  why don't people who want to right these stupid laws compete.  oh wait, they can't, that's why they need to regulate their competition, and then it will be illegal to own property because it's too expensive, so the government will have to own the land.  i predict war before that.  the blowback to this mindset will be a tsunami.  i hope i'm alive to see it.  probably smoke a cigar and talk on the cell phone while driving.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
Bawndoh said:
Will they still lay on them if they are on 1 acre??

i'm thinking that if hogs can live on 1 acre, people might have a larger requirement.  i mean, humans should be free range as well.  cities are just so,............ 21st century.

who knows, with more thinking like this, it could happen soon when the rat density is too high and we start eating each other (well documented).
 

Bawndoh

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
720
Well gees.  I didnt literally mean, give all the pregnant sows 1 acre of land each.  What about a 10x20 foot space?  That seems feasable to me.  At least for the first few weeks of the piglets' lives.  On the other hand, why are these sows in those crates for their whole pregnancy?  I know, I know....to prevent fighting, therefore killing the unborn.  Also because you can control their diets, and be sure theyre chipper and fat every morning.  I mean....our families used to...and still do, raise pigs in the winter (great north winter) months.  They had maybe 2-20 sows, a warm little shed with plenty of straw, and life went on.  There is plenty of open space in other states and provinces that would allow a pig or chicken more movement than 3 inches forwards, and 2 inches back.  I see a lot of open land that is not being used.  Besides the greatness of climate control...why are all of these operations in California?  There are numerous pig and chicken barns in Saskatchewan, and those piggies and the huge companies that own them seem to be doing just fine.  Im not on one side or the other..Im just stating the obvious.
 

Chris Bingham

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
165
Location
Chickasha, Oklahoma
Most of the time the pigs arent put in until the day the are supposed to farrow. Its not like they are left in there for 3 months prior to birth, plus with in a month or so you can put the sow in a pen with the piglets because they are big enough to get not get sat on.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,640
Location
Hollister, CA
Hi Bawndoh,

when you force capitalization on smaller farms through regulation, you lose small farms.  that's why, in general, big companies are for all this regulation.  it reduces their competition.

it's so simple, i can't for the life of me,figure out why people can't see this.  when you can't compete, you regulate your competition.  then you write subsidies for yourself to offset costs and mitigate risk.  not equally applying risk to capital is socialism.
 
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