Question for Any Club Calf Breeder

[jbh]

Hey Everyone....I'd like some opinions, please.

A few years ago, I think 2003, I promoted a new young bull called Bounty Hunter, that had been raised in a p2p program herd. He was a Full Flush x DeBull x Hot Coffee(awesome Sm/An donor cow).  He was about 5 years ahead of his time because he was really chunky,  deep ribbed and non-typical for the Full Flush's of that day.  His progeny were good but still he never really caught on, primarily due to his body type, not being freaky, long necked and shotgun bellied.  In his limited use he had both steers and heifers win major shows, and  I've sold numerous daughters in No Bull sales that make awesome cows and will always bring $2,500-$4,000.

It has always bugged me that I could never get a bull this good to catch on!  This is the same, nearly identical pedigree of FRICTION, whose semen is bringing around $200/unit and whose calf quality and fertility is all across the board in comparison to Bounty Hunter.  About the only thing the Bounty Hunter progeny needed was a shot more bone and leg hair (mainly because he was TH and PHA FREE!), and boy do we generally have an abundance of that anymore with the number of TH carrying females sired by Heat Wave, Heat Seeker, Sun Seeker and etc.

SO, here's my question......I've got around 2,500 units of Bounty Hunter semen in storage....do I start advertising him again as a TH and PHA FREE, PROVEN sire for carrier females that should really work nicely for our modern day, chunkier type cattle, or assume people will consider him old news and leave it set for my own personal use?  I'm thinking he would be a $15/unit price....or even cheaper? if advertised.  Let me know what you think....

Thanks in advance....Brad.

 

[farmboy]

i dont know but around here it seems like everybody has tried BH and gotten average calves out of him. maybe bad luck.

 

[furinsilex]

Well i am def not a professional on this issue but people are always looking for clean sires to breed those type of cows to. just look at Get It Done not that great of a bull in my opinion but he was promoted the right way and has seemed to succed. I dont know much about Bounty hunter name rings a bell but i would also like to see some pictures. With his pedigree being farmiliar to Friction right now is def the time to do it if you are going to.

 

[OH Breeder]

I have not seen any calves out of Bounty Hunter. If his breeding is as good as Friction then as said before, now may be the time to promote him. Do you have any updated photos? Possibly any calf pictures.

 

[Telos]

I remember Bounty Hunter and at one time thought of using him if I had that special/specific cow to put him on. He took a great picture.

From what you have said he would perhaps work on all those TH females. You could promote him as being a bull to use on those specific cows.

How would he work on those TH Shorthorn without the Chi? Is he homozygous for black?  Do the females make good cows? Would he work on those smokies'  with... Alias, White Chocolate, etc. ... genetics?  Would they slick?

Heck Brad...You're the Master/Guru of promotions. So what do I know?

 

[justme]

It's worth a try.  I wouldn't cheapen him up though...go with the average price.  Gotta get your money back out of it.  Plus, if he's good, they'll use him.  Put him in the ads with your other bulls and give it a try.

 

[TJ]

I think that I recall the name, but I don't remember a thing about him.  Pictures? 

 

[red]

I agree on not going too low on price. People will think he's on the bottom rung.

I think w/ that breeding he's worth promoting.Is he still around?  If not you can include that he's deceased some will buy because there will be no more.

 

[jbh]

Once again, thanks for everyones input......

Bounty Hunter is still alive, but getting some age.....he's been used for cleanup by his eastern owners for the past several years, and that's where I get most of my NO BULL breds.

The other thing I forgot to mention that got me fired back up on maybe promoting him again was the baldy Bounty Hunter bred female in last year's Kirk Duff sale.  She was a BH x Who/Sm that ended up bringing's $27,000 and had won several shows for the Talkington family.  She was awesome, and was simply a cleanup calf where he ran natural.

Zach, I appreciate your honest reply, but let me ask you this........Did you use him on carrier cows? (if you can remember)  I'm not asking this with a defensive tone, but more of an inquisitive one.  Free bulls on free cows = Average calves (generally)  Get It Done's can be absolutely horrible when not used on little TH carrier cows.....BUT, we're actually getting some of them across out of Heat Wave and other small carrier cows (emphasis on SMALL and CARRIER)

This is why my gut is telling me that Bounty Hunter should be brought back....but I struggle with the fact that people may think I'm just trying to reinvent the wheel and dump semen! 

Honestly,  if you would have asked me this question about someone elses bull from this era......I would have said the general public will never buy it.  Hence, this is why I'm asking you guys....it's free here....the Show Circuit's NOT!

I'll try and post some pics sometime....we're getting snow, my cell phone quit me, and my diesel pickup (that I just put Power Serve in yesterday) isn't running right!  SO GOES LIFE!

 

[vc]

Is this him?  http://www.steppingstonegenetics.com/pd_bounty.cfm

 

[knabe]

buy some cows you think he will work on and sell some calves.  it seems there are no bulls that work on every cow other than heatwave, which isn't true either, just that he does on more, and people will buy them becuase, it's a heatwave.

 

[chambero]

The standard $20 per straw price doesn't make people flinch.  That's only part of the cost of breeding them anyway.

It seems to me that there is a little bit of a movement in Texas and Oklahoma to "back up" up a little in time anyway on some of the matings.  Kris Black seems to be using a lot of old Maine genetics.  

I loved the old Full Throttle/Full Flush line except for the attitudes of those bulls themselves.  I'm not aware of any Full Flush sons that are really getting promoted any more.  I had more luck with those lines back when than anything I've been trying recently.  I personally would be using the heck out of Friction if the semen was any good.  I bought 20 straws his second year and got one calf.  That one calf calf (a heifer) just had her first baby (out of Rocky Balboa) this fall and she is going to be at the very top end of our herd and that first calf is very good.  I'll get a photo of him up when I get him clipped.

So, I bet there's a market.  If the bull is still alive, show a mature picture of him in your ads.  Or at least make one available via the internet (even on here!).  If you'd mentioned him a couple of months ago, I'd have given him a try this fall.

 

[jbh]

Is this him?  http://www.steppingstonegenetics.com/pd_bounty.cfm

That is a mature picture of him when he was pretty skinny...Christy took a decent calf picture of him in Denver I'll try and find.

 

[justme]

Not to discredit Zach...but have you really used the bull?  That would have made you pretty young if you did at that time. 

Give it a try Brad, it may work.  Use that calf that won in your promotions.  Maybe promote him as a bull before his time and say to use on carriers.

 

[red]

well, there have been several bulls that came out later instead of as yearling. Jakes Proud Jazz & Money Man are 2 that I bring to mind.

 

[TJ]

The standard $20 per straw price doesn't make people flinch.  That's only part of the cost of breeding them anyway.

It seems to me that there is a little bit of a movement in Texas and Oklahoma to "back up" up a little in time anyway on some of the matings.  Kris Black seems to be using a lot of old Maine genetics.  

I loved the old Full Throttle/Full Flush line except for the attitudes of those bulls themselves.  I'm not aware of any Full Flush sons that are really getting promoted any more.  I had more luck with those lines back when than anything I've been trying recently.  I personally would be using the heck out of Friction if the semen was any good.  I bought 20 straws his second year and got one calf.  That one calf calf (a heifer) just had her first baby (out of Rocky Balboa) this fall and she is going to be at the very top end of our herd and that first calf is very good.  I'll get a photo of him up when I get him clipped.

So, I bet there's a market.  If the bull is still alive, show a mature picture of him in your ads.  Or at least make one available via the internet (even on here!).  If you'd mentioned him a couple of months ago, I'd have given him a try this fall.

I agree $20 doesn't make people flinch, but I think it might move better @ $15.  This bull isn't a "new kid on the block" & honestly, since he's not, $15 might make him a bit more attractive to some.  All the major players should already know the name & the bull, so where you would probably get your sales is with the smaller, lesser known outfits & those are the types that might pick a $15 bull over a $25 bull, if they think everything else is equal, just because he's cheaper.  If he takes off, you can always raise the price because "semen is limited".  JMO.   

 

[CJC]

The other thing I forgot to mention that got me fired back up on maybe promoting him again was the baldy Bounty Hunter bred female in last year's Kirk Duff sale.  She was a BH x Who/Sm that ended up bringing's $27,000 and had won several shows for the Talkington family.  She was awesome, and was simply a cleanup calf where he ran natural.

I would diffidently put the pic of her in there. Man she is good looking.

 

[chambero]

If he's still running around at 8 years old, that says plenty for him.  Plenty of "normal" bulls don't make it any longer than that. 

 

[Dusty]

I have never marketed a bull, but I have observed a few things that I think are fairly accurate with regards to bull promotion.

A lot of times the only difference between an average bull and a good bull is the cows he is bred to.  

It seems there are two basic ways to successfully market a bull; the scarcity strategy and the #'s strategy.

Scarcity strategy involves having a few good ones being born on a bull with a lot of hype and having no semen on the open market and selling a little bit every year so it is used on flushes and on only the best cows.  This insures that there should be some top end ones born every year, because if nothing else they are coming out of the best cows.  Think Irish Whiskey, Steel Force and some of the top end purebreds.  This works really well if the bull is the real deal, but you have be able to get people to pay high $$ for semen because you are going to be selling less.

The #'s game is far more common especially with club calf bulls because of the inherent inconsistency of the genetic cesspool that is club calf genetics.  I am not bashing clubbies or the people that raise them at all.  I love club calves.  Raising them though is like sitting at a black jack table.  When things are working for you, you'll make some serious money, but when things start going the other way raising clubbies turns into a financial cancer.  Anyways, with the #'s game  the more cows you get a bull into the more good calves are going to show up.  Once a few good ones show up people start using him on their better cows and then you get even more good ones, it's a snowball effect.  Heat Wave and Who were two great bulls that I can think of that were marketed this way.  Drag em to Denver, let people drink beer and ooh and awe over them.  And then hope they freeze half way decent semen so they can settle something and then pray for some good calves to show up.  Heat Wave and Who made a ton of money for their owners.  Even these bulls weren't perfect by any means.  A lot of Who's ended up just being shot and left for the coyotes and Heat Wave ruined/killed a lot of cows.  However the sheer #'s of cows they were used on ensured that some high sellers and show winners were going to be born so people used the hell out of them anyway.  



So with regards to you bull I would have a retail semen price of $20. $15 looks like you are trying to get rid of semen on a second tier bull in my mind.
However make deals with people that have cows that you want to get the bull in.  Make deals if someone wants to flush a good cow to him.  Heck even give semen away to respected/well known breeders in order to try and get him into good cows and get calves on the well known sales. It's #'s game so do whatever you can to get semen out there and hope some good ones come down the pipe eventually.

 

[harley]

I'm definitely no expert, but I'd get a good mature pic of him, the catalog pic of the heifer that sold in Duff's sale, and some win pics of her if you can get them and build my advertisement from there.  A big pic of this heifer and any other good calves you can get pics of, a mature pic of the bull,  some big PHA and THA FREE wording and I would price him at $20/unit and make no apologies.  Good luck!