Raising clubbys is inhumane

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yuppiecowboy

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I just pulled (hand pulled) a 160 LB heatwave out of my best cow. ten k wont stop this calf, but i question if this bs we do is humane? Functional and realistic is gone by the wayside. Are we killing cows in the search of the great one?  I am sick of babysitting old cows that should be laying down and calvin on a grassy hillside for the sake of THAT ONE
 

shortyjock89

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Use Heatwave and really all clubby bulls at your own risk.  Nobody said you had to raise the next great one out of HW...it's very possible that the next great thing could be a calving ease sire. 
 

TJ

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Never had a 160 lber., but we've had some big ones & a few that got close.  I got sick of it also... checking cows every 3-4 hours during breeding season... getting up in the middle of the night & pulling calves out of bred heifers that we bought from someone else & they had bred them to a popular bull, who just so happened to sire large BW's... really sick of it!  That's one reason why I am raising Lowlines & now I am spoiled.  However, you can get calving ease out of other breeds, even clubby.  Just breed your heifers to "proven" easy calving, low birth weight bulls like Lowlines & some Angus & Red Angus.  Then breed the cows clubby, but use bulls that sire moderate birth weights on cows, something in the 80-95 lb. range with a few occasional 100 lbers. & you will be happy that you did!!

Speaking of big calves, I don't know if I remember how to use our calf pulling ratchet... seriously, it's been a LONG time.  
 

TJ

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
Use Heatwave and really all clubby bulls at your own risk.  Nobody said you had to raise the next great one out of HW...it's very possible that the next great thing could be a calving ease sire. 

Well said, Mr. Olson!!
 

cattlejunky

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We do not use heatwave.  Just to scared of what may happen.  I hope cow and calf are doing okay.  We get some freaks every once in a while, but no 160 pounders yet.  We had a cow a few years ago that was bred to a calving ease bull and had a 130# calf, the next year she had triplets, and the 3rd year she aborted.  she hit the road!
 

showgirl2010

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Wow triplets never even heard of it. 

Ya TJ, we dont pull any of our commerical calves but we did pull one 90lbr out of a 1st calver this year.  She was mine and I about pasted out LOL.
 

frostback

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yuppiecowboy said:
I just pulled (hand pulled) a 160 LB heatwave out of my best cow. ten k wont stop this calf, but i question if this bs we do is humane? Functional and realistic is gone by the wayside. Are we killing cows in the search of the great one? F this. I am sick of babysitting old cows that should be laying down and calvin on a grassy hillside for the sake of THAT ONE
Not sure if it was meant that way but as a clubbie breeder I took offence to your comments. I am a clubby breeder and have been for a while now, I have not had calves win any majors or anything but do sell some steers that compete at county and state level.
I treat my cows very humane. Please do not lump all together. I like babysitting my cows but they do lay down and calve by themselves. Only pulled 4 this year and 3 had front legs back and only lost one of those. I know your comments were not meant to offend but it did.
 

SWMO

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The cow must have been huge inside if you just Hand Pulled the calf.  We have never hurt a cow on a hand pull.  That to us us just a minor assist.

Takes both sides of the equation to make a calf that big.  Cow + Bull.
 

garybob

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"That, to Us, is just a minor assist"

The goal, Y'all, should be NO ASSISTS. Damn Right, it's inhumane. I've never seen the look of contentment  in the eye of a Cow or Heifer during a ''pull'' of either kind- slight, or mechanically assisted. I'm not a Vegetarian, nor an Animal Rights Activist, but, all that ''popping and cracking'' of the pelvic bones makes me really feel sorry for the cow & calf.

For a better refernce, Y'uns need to go back to the You-tube video of the PHA-C-section, that was posted here a-while back. YOu say using these Mustards isn't inhumane? Keep line-breeding High BW Gentic Defect carriers. Someone will, one day, write a book that'll make 'Charlotte's Web' and 'Flicka' and 'BarnYard' look like a harmless coloring book. Probably'll be a little girl who was traumatized by the sight of her first show heifer (that  was goosey-fronted, had great, workable hair,was oh, so sweet, and, won the family lotsa Buckles) dying from a C-section.


GB
 

Bawndoh

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If you have ever heard the groans from a mature (1600lb) cow while you are pulling her monster calf, you know its bad.  I feel so sorry for those Mama cows.
During the last 15 years we have NEVER checked a cow at night, and most of them get walked through once a day.  We have never found a cow dead with a calf half out, or anything outragous like that.  Our cows work for us, we dont work for our cows!
It is very rare around our place to be able to catch a calf once it is over 24-30 hours old.  We calve on 160-320 acres in April-July.  The calves hit the ground running from 60-95 lbs.
 

farmboy

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ive heard the cows groan, and its sad.... Very painful to watch when the hooves of the calf are out and momma is moaning in pain. When you cant get em out and their like that, and you've tried everything, time to put them outta their misery IMO and you dont have a vet able to come out...
 

Show Heifer

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garybob said:
"That, to Us, is just a minor assist"

The goal, Y'all, should be NO ASSISTS. Damn Right, it's inhumane. I've never seen the look of contentment  in the eye of a Cow or Heifer during a ''pull'' of either kind- slight, or mechanically assisted. I'm not a Vegetarian, nor an Animal Rights Activist, but, all that ''popping and cracking'' of the pelvic bones makes me really feel sorry for the cow & calf.

For a better refernce, Y'uns need to go back to the You-tube video of the PHA-C-section, that was posted here a-while back. YOu say using these Mustards isn't inhumane? Keep line-breeding High BW Gentic Defect carriers. Someone will, one day, write a book that'll make 'Charlotte's Web' and 'Flicka' and 'BarnYard' look like a harmless coloring book. Probably'll be a little girl who was traumatized by the sight of her first show heifer (that  was goosey-fronted, had great, workable hair,was oh, so sweet, and, won the family lotsa Buckles) dying from a C-section.


GB

Couldn't have said it better myself Garybob!!!
I have spoke to MANY "clubbie breeders" that have the attitude of "if it ain't a c-section, it aint' worth being born" and my favorite (on the bus at Denver), "if I have to knock 99 in the head to get that ONE "great one" I will."
And you people wander why PETA and animal rights groups are winning the war......
 

showgirl2010

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garybob said:
"That, to Us, is just a minor assist"

The goal, Y'all, should be NO ASSISTS. Damn Right, it's inhumane. I've never seen the look of contentment  in the eye of a Cow or Heifer during a ''pull'' of either kind- slight, or mechanically assisted. I'm not a Vegetarian, nor an Animal Rights Activist, but, all that ''popping and cracking'' of the pelvic bones makes me really feel sorry for the cow & calf.

For a better refernce, Y'uns need to go back to the You-tube video of the PHA-C-section, that was posted here a-while back. YOu say using these Mustards isn't inhumane? Keep line-breeding High BW Gentic Defect carriers. Someone will, one day, write a book that'll make 'Charlotte's Web' and 'Flicka' and 'BarnYard' look like a harmless coloring book. Probably'll be a little girl who was traumatized by the sight of her first show heifer (that  was goosey-fronted, had great, workable hair,was oh, so sweet, and, won the family lotsa Buckles) dying from a C-section.


GB

Agree with you 100%.  We have the power to make the decisions and they should be for the better of the cattle.  We were put on this earth to be caretakers of the beast of the land.  CAREtakers.

Jamie
 

frostback

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garybob said:
"That, to Us, is just a minor assist"

The goal, Y'all, should be NO ASSISTS. Damn Right, it's inhumane. I've never seen the look of contentment  in the eye of a Cow or Heifer during a ''pull'' of either kind- slight, or mechanically assisted. I'm not a Vegetarian, nor an Animal Rights Activist, but, all that ''popping and cracking'' of the pelvic bones makes me really feel sorry for the cow & calf.

For a better refernce, Y'uns need to go back to the You-tube video of the PHA-C-section, that was posted here a-while back. YOu say using these Mustards isn't inhumane? Keep line-breeding High BW Gentic Defect carriers. Someone will, one day, write a book that'll make 'Charlotte's Web' and 'Flicka' and 'BarnYard' look like a harmless coloring book. Probably'll be a little girl who was traumatized by the sight of her first show heifer (that  was goosey-fronted, had great, workable hair,was oh, so sweet, and, won the family lotsa Buckles) dying from a C-section.

You keep line-breeding LOW BW and see in a few generations that a COW wont be able to have a 80lb calf because you have breed any pelvis right out of them.
I have seen cows moan and groan having a 80lb calf and one that are quiet having a 120lb. I dont think you can really tell by her noises how painful the birthing process is.
You mean to tell me that purebred breeders never assist cows calving or have big calves.Please.
 

TJ

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frostback said:
garybob said:
"That, to Us, is just a minor assist"

The goal, Y'all, should be NO ASSISTS. Damn Right, it's inhumane. I've never seen the look of contentment  in the eye of a Cow or Heifer during a ''pull'' of either kind- slight, or mechanically assisted. I'm not a Vegetarian, nor an Animal Rights Activist, but, all that ''popping and cracking'' of the pelvic bones makes me really feel sorry for the cow & calf.

For a better refernce, Y'uns need to go back to the You-tube video of the PHA-C-section, that was posted here a-while back. YOu say using these Mustards isn't inhumane? Keep line-breeding High BW Gentic Defect carriers. Someone will, one day, write a book that'll make 'Charlotte's Web' and 'Flicka' and 'BarnYard' look like a harmless coloring book. Probably'll be a little girl who was traumatized by the sight of her first show heifer (that  was goosey-fronted, had great, workable hair,was oh, so sweet, and, won the family lotsa Buckles) dying from a C-section.

You keep line-breeding LOW BW and see in a few generations that a COW wont be able to have a 80lb calf because you have breed any pelvis right out of them.
I have seen cows moan and groan having a 80lb calf and one that are quiet having a 120lb. I dont think you can really tell by her noises how painful the birthing process is.
You mean to tell me that purebred breeders never assist cows calving or have big calves.Please.

If linebreeding low birth weight means that the resulting daughters wont be able to calve unassisted, then how come a fullblood Lowline cow have calved unassisted naturally to DR. Who?  How come several fullblood Lowlines have given birth, unassisted to 70-80 lb. birth weight calves?  That's about as linebred, low birth weight as you can get.
 

frostback

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So let me see if I got this straight? I can breed any lowline bull to a lowline heifer and I will be alright? You dont have bulls that would be better for heifers?
 

justintime

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GB...... I could not agree with you more!  Yes there is a definite correlation between selection for low birth weights and smaller pelvic areas. My vet says the same thiing, and he says they are doing more C- sections on heifers with75 - 80 lb calves than he has ever seen in his years of practice. He was telling me about a research study that showed that constant selection for low birth weight will result in smaller pelvic areas. I am going to have to ask him again about this and see if I can find a copy of the study. I also know of a large commercial herd who has been using low birth weights as a selection tool for buying their herd bulls. After several years of doing this, they are pulling more calves than ever before. Some of these heifers would have a problem calving a small cat.

As I get older, it is becoming very apparent to me, that most everything in life is best in optimum amounts, and this goes for most everything from the food we eat, to the amount of money we make, to how we breed our cattle, etc etc etc. Just look at most anything in your life... and too much or too little of anything almost always results in problems of some kind.  In regards to birth weights, I think we all should be considering calving ease in conjunction with birth weights. Personally, I think that if we try to select for only low birth weight, we are also selecting for shorter made animals. It stands to reason that a calf that is 1 inch longer than another calf, is going to weigh more.

I also feel that selection of low birth weight sires also can result in calves that have less performance. Occasionally you will get a high performance animal that had a very low birth weight. This is usually the exception rather than the rule. We have just completed our bull test for our upcoming bull sale. Not one of my bulls that indexed over 100 for ADG and WPDA , are in the lowest 50% for birth weights. Again I say NOT ONE. I find this perplexing as almost every inquiry I have on the bulls, is concerned about birth weights... and virtually no one is concerned about the performance of the bull. In times like we have now, with high grain prices, I happen to think that performance is extremely important. I also agree that no one likes having to assist a birth, so there has to be some optimum point  where we can achieve both. I think this almost obsession about birth weights in the beef industry is way over blown, and I am afraid that if we continue down this trail too far, that it is only going to bring problems of other kinds.

Eight years ago, I made a decision that I would band any bull calf that I had to assist at birth, unless it was a malpresentation.If the calf still needed to be assisted after the malpresentation was corrected, it would also be banded. I also started banding every bull calf with a BW of over 110 lb, regardless if it was born unassisted or not.... and regardless of it's pedigree. It has really been hard to band a few excellent bull calves that looked great, but happened to have BWs over 110 lb, but I have bit my lip and done it.  Maybe I have been lucky, but I have not had any bull buyer complain to me about having calving issues from our bulls since I started doing this. Some of you will say that 110 lb is too big a BW but I decided to keep bulls with these birth weights providing they were born unassisted. I felt that I also wanted to maintain some performance in the bulls. I do not know if this is the proper cut off weight to use but it seems to have been working here anyways. I always ask a potential bull buyer if they is planning to breed heifers. If they are, I steer them away from the 110 lb BW bulls and suggest others to them. If they are breeding cows and are concerned about weaning weights, or are feeding out their calves, I recommend the larger birth weight calves.

Selection using only performance is also not the best idea. Several years ago, one of the best herds in this part of the world, based all their selection on performance. They kept all their heifers and the replacements were selected from the highest performing end. They were selected from the top 20% based on yearling weight. After a few years of doing this, they found that they were seeing more reproductive problems in their replacements. They changed the selection criteria, and the top 10 % were finished and slaughtered. Their replacements came from the next 20%. They then sold the next 20 %  as breeding heifers for others to purchase and the bottom 50% were fed out and slaughtered as well. Once they figured out that Optimum was the best, their fertility in their herd improved very signifigantly.

Back to the topic of this thread. No cow should ever be bred to a bull that could result in a 160 lb calf. That is simply retarded. I don't care how good his calves are, I would simply NOT use this sire. I would never use a bull that consistently threw some calves that were 125 lb or more. I will agree that there is more to having a high birth weight calf than just the sire used. The bull seems to get blamed for everything. Part of the genetics for birth weight comes from the dam as well. If you constantly keep a bunch of heifers that have high birth weight genetics stacked into their pedigree, you are probably going to have some big calves from any sire you use... even a low birth weight sire.  There is another selection tool that is often forgotten... and that is COMMON SENSE. There is no element of common sense in using a bull that could kill your cows or result in dead calves, injured calves or injured cows.... or higher vet bills. Period!!!


 
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