SASKVALLEY RAMROD 155R

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librarian

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This question is derivative of coyotes post about the Barmoral Oaks bull.
What would this 155R weigh? He looks like a good "maternal" bull.

And, who was Blue Rock Roan Lily 2nd? Is there a photo of her somewhere?
Was there a Blue Rock program?
 

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Okotoks

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Blue Rock Roan Lily 2nd was a dual purpose cow John Boake bought in eastern Canada. He bred her to the polled beef bull Boa Kae Trailmaker bred by John's Uncle and Aunt, Berwyn and Lita Wise. The resulting calf was Banner Royal Oak a successful herd bull at both Banner and Alta Cedar. Roan Lily was bred back to her son and produced two more very successful bulls, Banner Royal Oak 45E and Banner Royal Oak 45F.  45F in turn sired Banner Old Oak 22A the sire of Banner Old Oak 58E and grandsire of Alta Cedar Oak's Siegnature 19G. I believe Alta Cedar still uses 19G by AI.
Blue Rock was a dual purpose herd, I think in Ontario. Several of their animals were brought to western Canada in the early seventies and crossed on the beef bloodlines.
 

justintime

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The Blue Rock herd was in Ontario and it was a very impressive set of big framed thick made traditional dual purpose Shorthorns. It became available a couple years after I made a trip to Ontario and purchased about 30 dual purpose females in the early 70s. I was asked to consider buying the entire herd when it became available, however, I thought I have purchased a good enough base of dual cows for our herd. Some of the better cows in the Blue Rock herd did come west to the Melenka's " Melbros" herd in Alberta. Several others were purchased by eastern herds. Blue Rock Roan Lily 2nd was a very large female but beautifully made and she produced some excellent offspring when mated to beef sires at the time.
Blue Rock Foxie also came west to the Bonnyview herd in Saskatchewan. He was one of the largest framed Shorthorn bulls I ever have seen, and was a close second to Ayatollah in frame size. Foxie worked very well with the Bonnyview beef cows. When Bonnyview dispersed, we purchased 6 Butte Lee cows that were in the Bonnyview herd. All were bred to Foxie. I think it was in 1976, that we took 3 Foxie sons to the Regina Bull Sale. They all sold well with a top of $4800 ( which was a lot of money at that time).
 

justintime

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librarian said:
Thank you. What was the market for the larger framed dual purpose Shorthorns at that time?

At that time, Shorthorns were losing favor to other British breeds  because they did not have adequate size. The larger framed dual purpose cattle allowed Shorthorn breeders to add some frame without leaving the breed. Most of these cattle were not only bigger framed but were also thicker made. Some dual lines in that era actually had more natural muscling as well ( eg:  Hillview Hobo, Canadian Image, Seagrave Royal Imperial, Meadowbrook Prince 16th, etc). I don't think there are any of the original Canadian dual purpose Shorthorns left, which is unfortunate. Some of these cattle were pretty amazing beasts.
 

RyanChandler

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Any pictures of those type, JIT?

That's the best pic of Ramrod I've seen; like it better than the promo pic. I bet he's well over a ton.
 

librarian

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I found pictures of Hillview Hobo and Canadian Image at
http://rlshorthorns.com/native_shorthorns.htm

But if there were just some range photos of cows from that time, seeing them would be really interesting.
I am pretty confused about what is actually meant by Dual Purpose. Were these cows milked? Were they a beef animal bred up from milking Shorthorns that retained a lot of milking characteristics? (less compact, less terminal?)
How were the carcass characteristics?
 

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justintime

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I will never forget my first trip to Ontario to tour through some dual purpose Shorthorn herds. I had never seen Shorthorns from any branch of the breed like them. Every barn I walked into, I was almost in total shock. I had never seen cows like this anywhere before.  They were truly dual purpose as they were milked and used for beef production as well. This was just the beginning of the era where milk production was becoming very important to these producers, so they were eager to sell off their lower producing cows in regards to milk production. I noticed that the higher the milk production the more refined the cows seemed to be. I tried to select cows that had less than 8000 lbs of milk production  and I also found that most of these herds were willing to sell these cows at basically market price. I remember going to one herd, and they had sorted off 9 cows that they were taking to the local auction later that afternoon. They were some of the best cows I had ever seen at that time. They had beautiful udders, were ultra smooth made and yet had thickness and guts. I asked the owner what he would sell this set of cows for, and he said I could take them at the current market price. I purchased all 9 cows at an average price of $280. They were 5 years old or younger. Of these cows, 5 stayed in our herd for many years. 4 did not handle the move west very well and went to market. One of these cows had her last calf in our herd at age 20 and came in open at 21 years of age. Another left here at age 18. Their udders were still excellent and they were simply tough cows that could maintain themselves as good as any other cows we had. I made the trip to Ontario with the intention of trying to find one or two dual purpose cows for our herd. I remember phoning my dad after my first day of viewing these herds, and wondering what I should be doing. He told me that if I could buy good cows at market price that I should be doing it, so I ended up filling a pot with 32 females. My total cost was $12,800 after they arrived at our farm. We had a production sale the next fall and I sold the first 6 calves from these cows for $14,250. This was a long time ago, actually in 1972, so things were much different then. It cost me approximately $80 per cow to have them trucked over 1500 miles to our farm. Today that would probably be around $400 per animal. In 1976, a daughter of one of these cows topped our production sale at $4100. A bull calf from another sold for $3200. I wish every purchase I ever made had worked as well as this group did.
I will see if I can find some pictures of some of these cows and get them scanned.
 

Okotoks

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librarian said:
I found pictures of Hillview Hobo and Canadian Image at
http://rlshorthorns.com/native_shorthorns.htm

But if there were just some range photos of cows from that time, seeing them would be really interesting.
I am pretty confused about what is actually meant by Dual Purpose. Were these cows milked? Were they a beef animal bred up from milking Shorthorns that retained a lot of milking characteristics? (less compact, less terminal?)
How were the carcass characteristics?
As JIT points out the shift to specialization made a lot of lower performance milking cows available. The Canadian Dual Purpose was the same branch of the breed as the American Milking Shorthorn. The old saying Bates for the pail and Booth for the butcher was about the emphasis placed on different traits by early breeders but in both cases the strains were developed from the same base, incorporating a significant amount of Colling bloodlines. The American Milking Association split from the beef association many years before the "Duals" in Canada split from the beef (now called Canadian Milking Association) In Britain, Canada and the USA the Milking Associations have incorporated a lot of Red Holstein and other bloodlines to get increased milk production and significantly change the appearance of the cattle. I guess that the Haumont cattle that continued to double register in both books are as unique in bloodlines in the American Milking association as they are in the American Shorthorn Association as Haumont's have not introduced any outside bloodlines. If you read some of the histories of the breed you will see where sometimes a top producing producer of milk production cows was actually of"beef" pedigree or a top beef show bull had "milking" lines. The polled gene was a mutant in Bates milking line cows in the USA then used in both milking and beef strains to establish polled lines. The polled gene is a mutation that occurs more frequently than some, there are DNA confirmed Full blood Blonde d'Aquetaine and Limousin.
 

librarian

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I hope you are able to find some photos. I wish they had, at least, bred Ayrshire into the Milking Shorthorns instead of Red Holstein.
From looking at photos of Milking Shorthorns that are much older than the period we are discussing (from 1917) I always thought these were very beautiful cows and wondered how the character they showed has slipped away, in most cases. Did the CAnadian Dual Purpose cows of the 1970's still have the same forward sweeping horns?
I think this book has good pictures, and one of the bulls from it (pictured below, sorry it's sideways) seems to resemble to same type as Canadian Image.
http://books.google.com/books?id=uvAIAQAAIAAJ&dq=milking%20shorthorn&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q=milking%20shorthorn&f=false
Not to suggest that Ramrod is Dual Purpose in type, just interested in a branch of his breeding.
It would be logical to think that the Bonsma masculine characteristics Ramrod exhibits do relate to strongly feminine and functional ancestors.
 

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carl

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Ramrod weighed 2600 lbs when we shipped him. He would have measured right around a frame 6. He has proven to be a very good cow maker, as some of the best cows in our herd are daughters, however his biggest accomplishment has been producing large groups of very thick,  meaty bulls that are very popular with our commercial customers. We are currently using 5 sons or grandsons of his in our own herd.
 
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