Say for instance...

[kfacres]

Say for instance a guy has a cow herd made up of all red cows that are super sound (with zero structural problems ever in the pedigree), average boned, very heavy milking cows that have plenty of body, (but could use some thickness), with every color imaginable in their background- black, red, roan, spotted, brown, yellow.. you get the jist.  Everything but tigers and whites. 

But say you wanted to create crazy colored steer calves to show.  You really don't care what bull you use, based upon his physical traits- since breeding with club calf bulls is pretty well a crap shoot anyways, but you're mainly just interested in creating color..

What bull(s) would you use? 

 

[showsteerdlux]

Sunseeker, Milk Man, Carpe Diem, maybe Johnny Walker Red, we used Red Zone on a Char cross cow, but somehow ended up with a black baldy or I'd suggest him.

 

[frostback]

Say for instance a guy has a cow herd made up of all red cows that are super sound (with zero structural problems ever in the pedigree), average boned, very heavy milking cows that have plenty of body, (but could use some thickness), with every color imaginable in their background- black, red, roan, spotted, brown, yellow.. you get the jist.  Everything but tigers and whites. 

But say you wanted to create crazy colored steer calves to show.  You really don't care what bull you use, based upon his physical traits- since breeding with club calf bulls is pretty well a crap shoot anyways, but you're mainly just interested in creating color..

What bull(s) would you use? 

If they are truly red then it would not matter at all what was in the background, other than the spotting gene could pop up.

 

[kfacres]

Say for instance a guy has a cow herd made up of all red cows that are super sound (with zero structural problems ever in the pedigree), average boned, very heavy milking cows that have plenty of body, (but could use some thickness), with every color imaginable in their background- black, red, roan, spotted, brown, yellow.. you get the jist.  Everything but tigers and whites.  

But say you wanted to create crazy colored steer calves to show.  You really don't care what bull you use, based upon his physical traits- since breeding with club calf bulls is pretty well a crap shoot anyways, but you're mainly just interested in creating color..

What bull(s) would you use?  

If they are truly red then it would not matter at all what was in the background, other than the spotting gene could pop up.

Say for instance that the Red Angus bull that sired these heifers, was very potent and consistant in his breeding ability, despite the backgrounds and genetic makeup of their mothers.  There might be a few white udders, for for the most part, the females are standard RA colors (light to dark) with maybe a little dark (black) on the head, legs and tail. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

mbsteermaker O0

 

[frostback]

Okay
Red cow x Homo Blk bull all black calves
Red cow x hetro blk bull 50% red,, 50% black
Red cow x Char bull      all yellow to orange calves. would get a wide range of shades.
Red cow x Smoke bull(Alias, Milkman) 50% blk,, 50% yellow or orangish calves
Red cow x Red diluter(yellow Jacket, Texas Twister) 50% red,, 50% yellow to orange
Red cow x Roan bull 50% red,, 50% roan.
Now if any of the bulls carry a or many spotting genes spots could show up if they were in the cows background also. I little harder to predict the spotting thing. White face, body white, and socks are all different genes.

 

[kfacres]

Okay
Red cow x Homo Blk bull all black calves
Red cow x hetro blk bull 50% red,, 50% black
Red cow x Char bull      all yellow to orange calves. would get a wide range of shades.
Red cow x Smoke bull(Alias, Milkman) 50% blk,, 50% yellow or orangish calves
Red cow x Red diluter(yellow Jacket, Texas Twister) 50% red,, 50% yellow to orange
Red cow x Roan bull 50% red,, 50% roan.
Now if any of the bulls carry a or many spotting genes spots could show up if they were in the cows background also. I little harder to predict the spotting thing. White face, body white, and socks are all different genes.

even though genetically it doesn't make sense, i really think this set of red cows have quite a bit of crazy color in them, and the ability to breed it on.  Maybe I guess I'm wrong, but in any doubt, we'll have to wait about 3 years to find out, as they are just calves now, and first time around they aren't getting anything but an Angus bull.  <deadhorse>  Man I love that icon!

 

[frostback]

When dealing with colour there are only 2 genes involed. One from the sire and one from the dam. If these cows are truly red then they only have a red gene to give there calves. Now depending on their back ground they could carrier some or none of the marking or spotting genes.  Not sure what you wanted to hear but those are the odds.

 

[kfacres]

what if it's like this.. 

black cows can be carriers of red...  can red cows be carriers of crazy color? 

such as..  These red cows are carriers of spotting (like a Holstein), roaning ( like a shorthorn), fawning (diluter like Sim).  So my question is...  Is there a Homo red.. like there is black... even if red is recessive?  Are there different "red" genes". 

my similar story.  black is supposed to be recessive in sheep.. However, we had a buck that got mated to ewes of 6 breeds.. and in each breed, he sired black hided lambs.  Now, my question is.. are you saying that black was possessed in the breeds of the ewes?  Like a Dorset- which doesn't have anything black in her breed. 

Second senerio..  Have a ewe that's coal black, when mated to anything, she produces black lambs.  Take those black lambs, and mate them to other white hided rams for a couple generations. until the offpspring are only 1/16 of the original black ewe.  Now, the rams that these multiple generations are being mated to, come from a breeding program that is very, very highly linebred since 1929.  Now, according to genetics, the black gene should have shown up along the way.. Yet it never has.  Since this flock was EXTREMELY linebred- obviously  no black was in those sheep... SO- according to science, the black should have been bred out of this line of a black ewe, after her first offspring.  The F1 cross should have been white bodied, but a carrier of black.  Not after 5 generations, should lambs have still been coming out black! 

In both of these cases, it was apparent that black was dominate... but again according to science.. black is ressessive... 

Now what do you have to say??? 

 

[TYD]

From what I have seen from rainmaker he throws some pretty cool looking calves I have seen black spotted from red cows and visa versa but they have all seemed to have a lil chrome somewhere or roans

 

[frostback]

First off I DONT DO SHEEP
You said they were red cows. Not red roan cows, or yellow cows themselves. If that is the case then the probabilities would be different. They can carry a spotting gene but cannot carry the roan gene without showing it. They cannot carry a diluter(simmi or char) without showing it. Yes there is a homo red animal. They would be red, not roan, not yellow or orange, a PB red angus is a homo red animal.

 

[frostback]

I just thought of another few things to add.
A Charolais is a homo red animal that is also homo for the diluter. Also for example a shorthorn that is true red with white markings is a homo red animal. She carriers 2 red genes but is also homo for the spotting gene. Does that help at all?

 

[advocate]

HEATWAVE will give you any color you want and can still make awesome calves the best option hands down if you want steers

 

[aj]

How many millions of dollars have been spent to select for goofy things? Simmentals,Gelbviehs, and Limis are trying to look like Angus. How many great Simmental got left behind in the damn color deal. How many good red limis got left behind cause everybody started chasing the black hided myth? I know....its not what the cool kids do. Good post thougjh.

 

[OKshorthorn]

frostback...So in your example of the shorthorn that is solid red with white markings. She is a carrier for 2 red genes and also a carrier for the spotting gene. So what does it mean that she is a carrier of 2 red genes. Is it as simply as she has a 2/3 chance to produce a solid red w/ white markings calf and a 1/3 chance for the spotting gene to throw something wacky out there?

 

[frostback]

Not sure what whaky is? In the shorthorn world it means that she does not carry the co-dominant white or roan gene. It means she is red and roan herself.  I cannot predict the 2/3 1/3 deal as she is only half the equation. I can tell you probabilities if you tell me the other half, or what she is bred to.

 

[kfacres]

in my original post, I said that these calves' mothers are every color imaginable, but they themselves are various shades of red- some of the lighter colored ones might be diluters.  Is it possible that these calves can still possess the spotting, roaning, and other genes despite not showing visible signs? 

 

[frostback]

in my original post, I said that these calves' mothers are every color imaginable, but they themselves are various shades of red- some of the lighter colored ones might be diluters.  Is it possible that these calves can still possess the spotting, roaning, and other genes despite not showing visible signs? 

It is possible that they carry the spotting, even without showing spots. If they are not showing any white hairs co-mingled with the reds then no they cannot carry that roaning gene. It is co-dominate not recessive like spots. Just remember it does not take a 50% mix of red and white to be a roan. Only a few hairs make one. If they are a orange then yes they could carry the diluter but that has to be visible to show up in their calves. Sometimes it is tough to judge this. 

 

[kfacres]

in my original post, I said that these calves' mothers are every color imaginable, but they themselves are various shades of red- some of the lighter colored ones might be diluters.  Is it possible that these calves can still possess the spotting, roaning, and other genes despite not showing visible signs? 

It is possible that they carry the spotting, even without showing spots. If they are not showing any white hairs co-mingled with the reds then no they cannot carry that roaning gene. It is co-dominate not recessive like spots. Just remember it does not take a 50% mix of red and white to be a roan. Only a few hairs make one. If they are a orange then yes they could carry the diluter but that has to be visible to show up in their calves. Sometimes it is tough to judge this. 

I have not studied the calves enough, nor close enough to know if they have that 'one' roan hair. just to say from a practical standpoint.  I can say that for the majority, their mothers are all sired by a shorthorn bull- and quite a few of them have the roaing gene.  As far as the diluter gene- the heifers range from yellow, to a very dark, deep cherry red color.  This variation, I imagine not only comes from their mothers, but I also supspect that some will possess the diluter gene likewise.

PLease send me your email, and I'll send you some pics of their mothers, as so I can get some thoughts as to what genes might show up, and what color patterns could become obvious.  mine is [email protected]

thanks