Semen will no longer be available-25 straws $3000 etc-THIS IS for Jeff Cornell

[mark tenenbaum]

I am really getting fed up with the so called next great Shorthorn-especially the big time syndicated ones who disappear after thier calves are either 150 pounds (from thier .01 bw epds) or arent worth a S&&*()%^T! As the breed and UNDOUBTABLY ANY ONE ELSE WHO WOULD USE A SHORTHORN BULL-shrinks into a 3 or 4 breeder clique -with 1 farm producing so-called performance cattle-and the other 3-or 4 all selling the same dam thing-with at least 60% of it being trade-The base of  new usable bulls( althoughVERY few) -only really becomes available tothe 3 or 4 people who bought the bull in the first place.This in effect is a stupid but concerted effort to further roadblock the breed from any real use by1: small breeders,(thats  90 PERCENT OF SHORTHORN PEOPLE), or 2: Anybody in the commercial deal who is limited to one or two $35-50 per straw AI bulls that dont have the thickness or performance of a $10 angus-they dont show em-so I dont want to hear the cliches about bone,and front etc etc. I SURE DONT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE BWS.Do you hear me up in North Dakota?-Is IT Because you didnt have the guts to see how your LTD Edition grandson would breed on the open market? Having had a herd of cattle with his breeder Mark Mueller DMCC,-Id say: come out of the clouds-I admire performance cattle-I started with them:from 3 cows 1: had Byland Explosian who went to Australia-the Lavender was AUNT to Byland Sparkler etc.But I kept the Bws within reason-and HAD TO SHOW these cattle-YOU ARENT PROVING YOURE GENETICS limiting them to your cows:and it seems like the whole dam bunch of you dont respect that people want to breed thier cattle HOW THEY WANT TO BREED THEM-they dont want to have to buy your cow-or female to access a bull.-As far as the Dunlap so-called commercial cattle go-love the show cattle-but in terms of the rest of us peasents-YOUR RACE IS RUN,and the outcross etc bulls -again going back to DMCC LTD Edition-dont have any value outside of your program-cause no-body else is using them-at this point-WHY WOULD THEY if they could? O0

 

[itk]

I never have liked the syndicate deal. When we first started buying shorthorns Cory Schrag told me that he always thought his bulls were good enough to sell semen by the straw. That comment has always stuck with me. I always thought syndicating was playing it safe and maybe showed a breeder wasn't really as confident in how good their bull was in relation to what they might have just paid for it. Yes, selling semen is a gamble but people should at least have enough confidence to bet on themselves and sell semen by the straw.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I never have liked the syndicate deal. When we first started buying shorthorns Cory Schrag told me that he always thought his bulls were good enough to sell semen by the straw. That comment has always stuck with me. I always thought syndicating was playing it safe and maybe showed a breeder wasn't really as confident in how good their bull was in relation to what they might have just paid for it. Yes, selling semen is a gamble but people should at least have enough confidence to bet on themselves and sell semen by the straw.//??? Put much more succinctly (or was that sober?) than my ramble.The best way to distance your breed from the others is to not let the very people try the Bulls who would get non-Shorthorn breeders to use any Shorthorn. Most of them wouldnt touch them-unless a nieghbor had calves to see that were safe etc.so in the event some of the latest greatest are llegit and not b$%^&**(Lsh$%^&tThe Shorthorn nieghbor cant use em either etc. I know of enough older genetics that llegitimately work as well or in some cases better than the Latest big thing,and have learned enuff about the maines involved-that they dont allways breed that true-just like everyone else-so it goes right to what you said:confidence in the breeding ability)-in short-I havent seen (on a regular guys cow type) any  good ones out of these latest paoens of great breeding. That leaves alot of people out. I know I lost everything-including almost all my cattle-but I will produce a usefull bull at some point,and if we can make it work,Ill put him out at $15 a straw.-Although I dont own him(I bred a good part of his pedigree and him)-a guy in Iowa-and his buddy in Indiana may already have one. Well have to see how he does. PS-Old wierd Harold only allowed 1 person to takeExclusives  Carrie,and Primos Lady (Royal Prides Dam,and the most  perfect cow to this day,Ive ever seen) to transova in 1998-that person would be ME-We lost some embryos when a tank went down-still got somePrimos Lady by Studly (who was out of Carrie)
Also have pics of both cows in a pen,amazing if you appreciate what he achieved-albeit dueling pedigrees. O0quote]

 

[NSF]

Mark, you do realize "that guy from North Dakota" did have open semen sales on Red Demand? Right?

 

[JTM]

A person syndicates a bull to make money, more than he would selling semen on it probably. 30,40, $60,000 for a syndication. How many units would you have to convince the public to buy at $15 a unit in order to make that off of the bull? A lot of people like the chance to potentially have some really good show calves for an investment of a couple thousand. A lot of times you can make your money back fairly easily if you have good enough cows. As far as the show ring goes, it's all about the look, and the limited edition cross isn't giving the right look, but I'm sure they are very good cattle, probably perform better than the ones winning...

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Mark, you do realize "that guy from North Dakota" did have open semen sales on Red Demand? Right???? Yes -Did have open sales-now no longer avail. etc-check the latest sale catalogue.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

A person syndicates a bull to make money, more than he would selling semen on it probably. 30,40, $60,000 for a syndication. How many units would you have to convince the public to buy at $15 a unit in order to make that off of the bull? A lot of people like the chance to potentially have some really good show calves for an investment of a couple thousand. A lot of times you can make your money back fairly easily if you have good enough cows. As far as the show ring goes, it's all about the look, and the limited edition cross isn't giving the right look, but I'm sure they are very good cattle, probably perform better than the ones winning...????-Precisely the point being made-the Ltd Edition Cross is not open anymore-5 units avail. at the auction etc-probably for the reason just stated,I was using him almost 17 years ago-the boys in Dunlap-didnt exist in Shorthorns then-the North Dakota guys were still in the semi-Ayatollah doldrums. I think the part of the equation missing here RE people like Cornell,and some others Ive been aware of over 20+ years who are crossing the cattle out-is that the whole make money exclusionist attitude-is driving the VERY FEW outsiders who might Try a Shorthorn-ELSE WHERE-and Elbee (hats off) has one of the most viable real world commercially and cover the bases (if not the only) Shorthorn bull Available-in WYMORE-at Cattle Visions-FOR $15 a straw.I would really want to see actual dollar figures on a Shorthorn that brought $39-60000 in Syndication (100 Solutions or Pure Solution per chance?) when there are only a handfull of calves registered to the bull relative to that kind of initial outlay-@nd-WHO SPENT the money? and how?-if again-there are less than 100 calves after a few years-Bull Durham-and a slew of others I cant remember at the moment-would fall into the same category.As an aside-whatever happened to the almost 0 BW-mile wide-1200plus pound April calf I saw at Louisville-called CF Cinch? -Small example O0

 

[linnettejane]

is it not all about control?

controlling who you have your name associated with (those in the syndication)... controlling what cows your bull gets used on...controlling the resulting progeny (whether they get registered or sent straight to the sale barn)... controlling the promotion of the ones good enough to register...controlling what the public is allowed to have access too...which in turn, probably creates more $$$$ ...when the supply does not fit the demand
makes business sense to me...but that doesnt mean i like it...

 

[Doc]

I'm going to agree with JTM on this one. The syndicate option as the seller gives you the true " bird in the hand vs the 2 in the bush" outlook. It also should help you as a syndicate owner when you go to sell the progeny or females bred to that bull , because of the limited places you can that progeny.  I can say that I've been involved in a few over the years ,HS Rodeo Drive , CF Primo , Deer Trail Awesome,& Sangamon Masterkey. I will say that I made money on every one of those except Masterkey.
 

 

[simmyman67]

LinetteJane is correct...

 

[Show Dad]

I'm not a Shortie breeder but my neighbor, MBar, is and I would say they have one of the most practical herds going. But MBar's Fathead bull just puts the flesh to his progeny and they look good too. The last I knew they were selling Fathead semen openly you just need to contact them.

 

[Till-Hill]

What does it do to the accuracy of EPD's when a bull only gets used on certain cows.........hmm I'm guessing it don't hurt them! That's my complaint about them....and on the cow side when she gets treated like a baby but they compare her calves to the ones out doing it in the pasture.....

 

[JTM]

A person syndicates a bull to make money, more than he would selling semen on it probably. 30,40, $60,000 for a syndication. How many units would you have to convince the public to buy at $15 a unit in order to make that off of the bull? A lot of people like the chance to potentially have some really good show calves for an investment of a couple thousand. A lot of times you can make your money back fairly easily if you have good enough cows. As far as the show ring goes, it's all about the look, and the limited edition cross isn't giving the right look, but I'm sure they are very good cattle, probably perform better than the ones winning...????-Precisely the point being made-the Ltd Edition Cross is not open anymore-5 units avail. at the auction etc-probably for the reason just stated,I was using him almost 17 years ago-the boys in Dunlap-didnt exist in Shorthorns then-the North Dakota guys were still in the semi-Ayatollah doldrums. I think the part of the equation missing here RE people like Cornell,and some others Ive been aware of over 20+ years who are crossing the cattle out-is that the whole make money exclusionist attitude-is driving the VERY FEW outsiders who might Try a Shorthorn-ELSE WHERE-and Elbee (hats off) has one of the most viable real world commercially and cover the bases (if not the only) Shorthorn bull Available-in WYMORE-at Cattle Visions-FOR $15 a straw.I would really want to see actual dollar figures on a Shorthorn that brought $39-60000 in Syndication (100 Solutions or Pure Solution per chance?) when there are only a handfull of calves registered to the bull relative to that kind of initial outlay-@nd-WHO SPENT the money? and how?-if again-there are less than 100 calves after a few years-Bull Durham-and a slew of others I cant remember at the moment-would fall into the same category.As an aside-whatever happened to the almost 0 BW-mile wide-1200plus pound April calf I saw at Louisville-called CF Cinch? -Small example O0

My neigbhors down the road, Rumpke's, had CF Cinch. He got his head stuck in a panel in the barn one day and they found him dead. They were devastated as I would have been. I was going to try for that bull but then I seen my neighbor's bidding and let it go. That's alright, I ended up with CF Star Bucks which will hopefully prove to be even better. By the way, an all american whose semen is for sale on the open market for $25 a straw. In my opinion, he is syndicate quality but isn't sired by Trump, Solution, or Sonny. The syndicate bulls still have to have calves that compete or they will fizzle out quickly. Then you will start to see available semen on the bull. If the calves are winning shows, the syndication will make the owners some money.
Also, Mark you know that I like and believe in the Maine Anjou x Shorthorn cross. I really wanted that lot 24 cow at Cate's sale. Countess cow family back to Limited Edition.

 

[JTM]

What does it do to the accuracy of EPD's when a bull only gets used on certain cows.........hmm I'm guessing it don't hurt them! That's my complaint about them....and on the cow side when she gets treated like a baby but they compare her calves to the ones out doing it in the pasture.....

Totally agree with this being a problem. Same issue with ET calves too. Not sure how that works.

 

[aj]

I'm not sure what it is now but the average life of a purebred herd was 6 years. Isn't this a big part of the equation? People come in and spend money and then are gone in 6 years about that time they figure out what happened to them. People with alot of money go to big time breeder and get their advice. And of course they get steared into thats breeder herd. They spend 80,000 dollars on cattle and then have a 40,000 dollar dispersal 6 years later. I think this is a factor.......plus its such a slow business. You breed a cow then she calves 1 year later then you wean the calf 1 year later. It is SLOW and takes PATIENCE. ;D

 

[nate53]

What does it do to the accuracy of EPD's when a bull only gets used on certain cows.........hmm I'm guessing it don't hurt them! That's my complaint about them....and on the cow side when she gets treated like a baby but they compare her calves to the ones out doing it in the pasture.....

This really plays into what Linnette Jane said, you control what cows the bull breeds to and can influence the #'s one way or another (ideally would be positive), so when or if these animals do get used in the realworld their #'s aren't a true reflection of the cattle in real world matings and enviroment.  They are a true reflection of Bull A - bred to cow B, but not a good reflection bred to cow B-Z.  Then again maybe their is some syndicates that breed great show cattle and they don't want the genetics to be used in real world conditions because this is not what they are bred for and if done would be viewed very negatively (understandable).  

EXample on changing epd.s, (docility) breeding animals with a very high docility #'s over and overto each other will most of the time yield in more and greater docility epd.s and acc.  But when someone takes those docile animals and breeds them to others on low end of docility there will be fewer dociile animals, so the #'s wouldn't be as good.  So if you breed the best to the best  in a trait or traits, and totally remove the best to okay or to bad matings, #'s will change, and great #'s look a lot better than okay #'s. My 2 cents.   8)  

It would suck though if the syndicated bull could do a lot of good for the breed and his much needed influence is being held back.

 

[vc]

AJ, isn't after 6 years of losses you have to show a proffit to the IRS? Take your right off and go is what that sounds like.

 

[CAB]

If you're the seller, and can get a syndicate going, you'd be kind of crazy not to. It's like having your cake and eating it too. You really can't fault them because PPL buy into the syndicates. JMO. BTW, I don't like the syndicated bulls B/C I can't use the bulls or afford to get in on the syndication. There are plenty of other bulls to use though.

 

[Okotoks]

I think it's referred to as "private enterprise". It's what keeps the economy going!

 

[Will]

What I have always wondered id why buy into a syndcated unproven bull calf when he is not really genetically differant than other bulls on the market.