SH Heifer - Breeding Advice

[JR Cattle Co.]

Wouldn't use for first calf heifers, but should work very well on down the road...Hannibal.  The cross of Hannibal and Double Stuff has led to many great calves and bulls including Manchild, Hired man, and many more.  I use Hannibal on my Double Stuff cows.  For a clubby calf, you could try Rocky Balboa, he is a calving ease bull, and for an easy calving maternal type bull, you could use Starpower (simmental).

 

[Doc]

In my world people have to justify costs of a product. I know I would like to have an aluminum trlr, but I just can't justify the cost when my steel trlr still does the job. So maybe someone would like to use Gizmo , but they just can't justify the cost when there is truly viable options out there. There are other bulls with more balanced EPD's that will give you a saleable product that cost you less. I know I personally  wouldn't use $100 semen to just breed to. I would say do your research, choose a clean bull if your cow hasn't been tested, & without seeing the cow make sure the bull you choose is structurally correct & has some maternal values based upon on the way the cow is bred. JMO. (thumbsup)

 

[uluru]

Want to try some good Canadian bulls with semen available in the US
Go to www.shorthorns.ca

 

[kanshow]

Breeding for maternal traits, fertility and "stickability AI" I have had very few heifers that do not stick AI the first time and only one that didn't stick after 2. Unlike Jill I have never had a "1st calf heifer doesn't have any milk, or won't claim the calf, or lays on it or some other stupid thing heifers tend to do" so I have no trouble using expensive calving ease semen on heifers

  I read this earlier this morning and  I refrained from posting something not very nice in reference to your long term experience in the beef business or industry if you like.  I decided to just let it go..    Then I found myself thinking about this when I was out feeding heifers..  I wondered how many of the 30 or so in the pen are going to cause problems for us next year.  None of them are bred to be bad, have accidents, etc, but I can almost guarantee one of them will not be the mother we want.  I don't know which one she is, if I did I'd cull her.  This  is not about if the bull is worth $100 or not because he is....  but luck and odds being what they are it would be money wasted for many. 

 

[Jill]

Breeding for maternal traits, fertility and "stickability AI" I have had very few heifers that do not stick AI the first time and only one that didn't stick after 2. Unlike Jill I have never had a "1st calf heifer doesn't have any milk, or won't claim the calf, or lays on it or some other stupid thing heifers tend to do" so I have no trouble using expensive calving ease semen on heifers.

Oh that we could all live in your perfect world, I would venture to say you are the only one on this board that hasn't ever had a problem with a 1st calf heifer and you should pay your AI person a big bunch extra if you are getting 100% stuck the 1st time that is amazing.

 

[NHR Shorthorns]

Lots of really good ideas as far as the bulls. I am seeing a lot of different breeding styles. Some people would like to to stay with a shorthorn line bred bull. Which in my mind would and could produce a very nice breeding animal. While other breeders would like to to go with more of an outcross to produce the perfect terminal steer. I just would like to know since the Double Stuff is a THC and PHC, so i guess you would want to stay away from carries. So this means this calf is going to be a pretty high variance outcross, seeing as how she is a heifer and you are trying to stay away from the Double Stuff bred bulls. Now on her second calf, thats when you can expand the number of bulls you can breed her too, that is when I say come back with a THF and PHF Double Stuff bred Clubby bull to produce your awsome steer.
I say use Durango, SS Kaboom, Goldmine this year. (live animal)
Next year come back with a Club Calf Double Stuff bred bull (steer)

 

[oakbar]

Right on--Kanshow and Jill!!   Nobody gets 100% bred on first service over time.   Actually I did my first year--on six heifers--and I thought boy "Why do people worry so much about their breeding--this was easy!!"   I'll just say that I've temepered my expectations a little since then!!   There are lots of good bulls--Shorthorn and otherwise--who don't cost $100 a straw.  
One thing I would say--beware of the certificate cost as well as the semen cost--some of these breeders are getting $50-60 per certificate.   I personally think that's pretty steep and if it comes down to using a bull that has a $15 certificate versus a $55-60 certificate and all other things are equal, I guess I'll try to save a little money.   Gizmo is $30.00, Deadwood $35.00, TM Gus $15.00, ArSuLu Tonic $15.00, & ArSuLu Osage $30.00.

 

[CAB]

Savaged, Sin City is a good bull, but don't make the mistake of trying to use him on 1st calf heifers like many others have including myself. He will not be a consistant calving ease sire, if @ all calving ease. Way too many big calves out of him. IMO.

 

[common sense]

Here is my policy on breeding heifers - it has worked great for me and has been tweaked as more information becomes available

Do everything possible to minimize having a wreck - this means to me
1. using a known, proven calving ease bull with excellent EPDs and very high accuracy
2. not using new unproven bulls on heifers
3. having heifers in good condition (not fat) and approximately 70-80% of mature BW
4. pelvic measure heifers - if pelvic area is too small ---> gone
5. heifers get bred 2 times maximum AI - if they don't stick ---> gone


Breeding for maternal traits, fertility and "stickability AI" I have had very few heifers that do not stick AI the first time and only one that didn't stick after 2. Unlike Jill I have never had a "1st calf heifer doesn't have any milk, or won't claim the calf, or lays on it or some other stupid thing heifers tend to do" so I have no trouble using expensive calving ease semen on heifers.



While it has been suggested that you need to breed her to a bull you like, I would suggest you do your homework, research your pedigrees and make a decision based on knowledge - with the idea that your goal should be a live calf and a live heifer - a great dead calf out of a bull you really like and a crippled heifer from a bad calving isn't worth a hill of beans, no matter how much you liked the bull.

I agree with a lot of this advice on breeding heifers and once again must add that a LOT depends on your own personal program. Using a known calving ease bull is very important to our program but you must remember that doesn't guarantee that you won't have problems. The breeding condition as well as calving condition of the heifer is VERY important for many reasons. We sacrifice a lot when we build a herd on show heifers but it happens and you have to be very very careful.  I make decisions on pelvic size issues at breeding time based on the current market.  It's not difficult to tell how large or small a pelvic area is when you are A.I. breeding your heifers. Settling a heifer the first time A.I., especially a show heifer is not the easiest for any AI tech because there are so many variables.  I never sell a heifer based on her ability to stick AI. We usually start our heifer AI breeding season earlier than the rest of the population so that we are able to AI more than once if needed and then still have time to put them with a bull in the even they don't settle before the end of our breeding season.  Anything open after being with the bull is ultrasounded, if not earlier, to look for any other issues that we may have missed and then we most likely sell her based on that test.  I am not about to sell a female with 15 years of breeding history because she was cystic and I didn't catch it early enough.

I think that we can't place the blame of a lack of milk in a female on a given year entirely on maternal traits either.  First of all I believe there are a number or things that might cause a female of any age to not milk very well one year and then the next year milk great and wean a huge calf.  I have seen mature cows refuse to claim a calf and i think that environment and the calving experience have a lot to do with that.  Also, I have had some retired show heifers that maybe got too fat or are still carrying too much condition that may not milk the best and then milk like crazy the next year.  That is the fate of the show heifer world, not the fault of the heifer that would have been a great milker had she not been a show brat.

I think that it's always important to breed cattle that you like to bulls that you like otherwise it would be difficult to have a lot of love for your program.  Breeding all of my heifers to Longhorns would probably ensure that I had lots of live calves on the ground that are sound, small and survivors however I don't particularly care to look at those calves in my pasture, I don't care to try and market them and if my females are not able to have a calf out of bulls that I do like and that have some real marketability I really don't have any need for those females.

 

[Show Heifer]

Since a few others have gotten on the subject of AI'ing....I know of someone who bragged to me about being 100% on AI'ing over the course of YEARS. Funny, mine didn't stick, and neither did my neighbors. Guess ours were the exception over the course of YEARS.

 

[Show Heifer]

Another thing....someone mentioned this before...but....pick a calving ease bull YOU like. If it is a longhorn, herf, whatever. USE IT.
I know my management style, meaning I like to feed. I tend to have my cows/heifers in VERY good condition. So I error on the lighter side of BW EPD's. But, I also know I am willing to get up a night and check my cattle, so I might push it a bit on some.  I know what cows/heifers of mine come from larger BW families....etc....etc....
I also have a thing called "gut feeling" and you all can laugh, but...it has served me well over the years, and I have not trusted it at times (in cattle and people) and have paid dearly for it......

Your goal on a heifer is a live calf and a healthy calf, NOT a trophy.

 

[kanshow]

Your goal on a heifer is a live calf and a healthy calf, NOT a trophy.

  and a live cow! 

 

[Show Heifer]

I was typing too fast!!!

Your goal on a heifer is an alive heifer and a healthy calf, NOT a trophy!!

Thanks for catching that kanshow!!!

 

[red]

SH- I've talked to Cowboy for hours & never heard him brag on 100%. He seems to strive for quality.

Red

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Right on--Kanshow and Jill!!  Nobody gets 100% bred on first service over time.  Actually I did my first year--on six heifers--and I thought boy "Why do people worry so much about their breeding--this was easy!!"  I'll just say that I've temepered my expectations a little since then!!  There are lots of good bulls--Shorthorn and otherwise--who don't cost $100 a straw. 
One thing I would say--beware of the certificate cost as well as the semen cost--some of these breeders are getting $50-60 per certificate.  I personally think that's pretty steep and if it comes down to using a bull that has a $15 certificate versus a $55-60 certificate and all other things are equal, I guess I'll try to save a little money.  Gizmo is $30.00, Deadwood $35.00, TM Gus $15.00, ArSuLu Tonic $15.00, & ArSuLu Osage $30.00.

where did you find the Gizmo for $30.00?

 

[red]

I think he's talking certificate?

 

[Dutch Acres]

We have 2 Deadwood Calves, both bulls.  One 75#, one 130# and taken out of the side.  Both dams were heifers.  We are trying Alta Ceder First Blood First Blood 5R this year.  He is a Canadian bull with reported calving ease in his EPD's.  Both the Deadwood calves are pretty good but I would say he is unpredictable on calving ease, much like all the Shorthorn bulls. 

 

[DLD]

We have a Gizmo bull calf out of a first calf heifer (Jakes Proud Jazz) this time, that's very impressive, imho. (I'll try to get some pics up this week, since I figured that mating would be interesting to some here). As to the cost of the semen, I had 9 straws in my tank before it started going up - I'd priced it several times at $100/straw, and nobody took it. Now I'll use it carefully, but I bred the Shorthorn heifer we showed last fall to him, too (and I'm gonna hang on to the remaining 7 straws, too, thanks anyway). I wouldn't use it if I hadn't clearly seen her standing and felt like my timing (and everything else) was right. I know that doesn't guarantee I'll stick her, but I believe it increases my odds considerably.

 

[Cowboy]

Post directed to Show Hfr ------

Miz Show Hfr -- it doesn't take an einstien to figure out who you were talking about in your above posts.

I "MY" herd, in 10 years, we had ONE repeat -- period! hese are production cows, not donors who had been flushed several times.

The refference you made above on your cows and your nieghbors cows was missing some info. Here it is.

Your donor was flushed 5 times here, she was 15 years old -- I bred her for you just a day or so before you picked her up -- she didn't settle - I am sorry - it does happen.

Your nieghbors cows -- both Red Angus, produced 83 good emryos from 3 flushes on 2 donors n 6 months. I bred the lower producing one -- she calved to that. I bred the other donor 1 day before they came to get her -- with the same semen that had failed to fertilize 80% of her third flush ( 1st - froze 21, 2nd froze 25, 3rd froze only 4 of 18 -- semen quality was the only difference), this cow settle to the bull on the next service at home.

I do not talk of results I have NOT been able to achieve. Bragging will only work if you can produce -- I have records on every cow I have ever bred here, those results are there to see every day.

I am not real happy you seem to like trashing people, others cattle -- and hell even results you had your self and blaming it on some one or thing. Last year -- you bred your own cows basicly for the first time without help from your tech. How can that be some one else's fault. I breed on proven timing regimen, I relayed that to you -- and this is the second time you have mentioned the result here on a public forum. I wasn't there people -- and by your own words -- quote "I suck at breeding", so how in hell is my fault!

This is not rocket science, all it takes is diligence, experience, and quality raw materials. Then the results will average out over time. Breed as many cows as I have in 30 years and come back and tell me it doesn't work -- I will buy every one your choice of meal if I am wrong. As of last estimate, I have been in over 170,000 cows. That is FACT, not brag.

If this all sounds like I am upset -- well congratulations Miz Show Hfr, "I AM"

By the way -- you WILL get your stupid paper work when I send it -- so that you know -- it is formality -- period!

Have a great day -- and good luck with your future breeding decisions -- yo umay need it! Chuck will do a great job for you -- how long will it be before you make fun of him as well -- probably not too long!

I was having a good day too -- sorry every one if this makes you less impressed with me, but I have had enough of the rampit running own of every thing and every one -- and in case any one cares -- I am using Gigolo Joe this year for two reasons -- he is a GREAT young bull, and the owners are damn fine people -- but not according to you know who -- bad people equals bad bull -- I will say BULL to that. Leaves more semen for me!

Good day all

Terry

 

[garybob]

We have 2 Deadwood Calves, both bulls.  One 75#, one 130# and taken out of the side.  Both dams were heifers.  We are trying Alta Ceder First Blood First Blood 5R this year.  He is a Canadian bull with reported calving ease in his EPD's.  Both the Deadwood calves are pretty good but I would say he is unpredictable on calving ease, much like all the Shorthorn bulls. 

That's what i'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Majority of you guys on here are breeding for the ''barn burnin' great one", and complain when Y'uns sometimes get the "cow-killin'dead one". You say, and I quote you directly,"Both the (sire's name deleted) calves are pretty good but I would say he is unpredictable on calving ease, much like all the Shorthorn bulls".
You guys whine about the dead ones, and keep using "chancy" Sires. Sharpen your knife & count to two.

No wonder Bolze had a rough time.

GB