shorthorn buyers and breeders beware!

[the angus111]

guys, i realize this is a cattle forum and not a site to discuss personal problems. there are breeders that you must be aware of that are not playing by the ASA suggested terms and conditions.I will not put there names on this board,because for one thing it wouldnt be on for a second and it would be yanked and rightfully so.however if you want to know who these individuals are,you can email me at [email protected] or call me ,which i prefer at 316 833 0217.finally if the ASA is going to have rules and terms,should they back them? thanks rusty

 

[Show Heifer]

If you are going to have rules  -  ENFORCE THEM.

If you are not going to enforce them  -  HAVE NO RULES. 

 

[OH Breeder]

That is unforntuate. If there is an ASA rule violation and you feel you are not getting service then start contacting board members. Or, if a rule was violated and you are not getting serviced go to the top. Can you post the rule violation?

 

[aj]

It was apparently a deal where a female didn't breed and the seller didn't stand behind it.

 

[knabe]

is this a problem of reading the rules in the first place?

 

[red]

Sorry Rusty. I'm really surprised they didn't stand behind you.

Red

 

[justintime]

Rusty, I hope it wasn't me!!!!! You really should have said something!  Just kidding, and I realize that I shouldn't be kidding around on such a serious matter. Every once in awhile you hear a story like this, and it makes your skin crawl. Unfortunately, we have no control over the quality of people who get into any breed. This topic brings a story to the surface of my brain, that I haven't thought about for awhile. Several years ago, a large, well known Angus outfit here in Canada dispersed their herd. At the beginning of the sale, the owner announced in his opening remarks that the cows selling had been all pregnancy tested. The volume buyer of the day purchased 28 bred females. Shortly after he got his purchases home, cows started coming into heat, one by one. He ended up with 9 open cows out of the 28 he purchased. When he contacted the seller and told him that he had heard him comment that the cows were all pregnancy tested, the seller responded that the preg tests were indeed done, he had just not published what the results of the tests were. Seeing that the sale was a dispersal with no further guarantee, the buyer was out of luck. I suppose he could have lawyered up and gone the legal route, but I am sure anything he would have received in winning would have been eaten up  by the legal fees.

I also remember a Charolais breeder in eastern Canada who had 3 or 4 body guards with him wherever he went. The story was that he was a Mafia boss so I doubt if anyone phoned him up to complain about a heifer not breeding or not being in calf. He lasted in the cattle business a few years and then was found dead one day. Hmmmmm.... I wonder what happened!!!!

 

[oakbar]

Hey Angus 111,

Sorry you're having a bad experience--I can relate to it because I'm having a similar experience(only with a Charolais breeder) right now!!

I appreciate that you are professional enough not to include names within your post--usually that just causes the situation to become inflammatory and make the situation exponentially more difficult.  I encourage you to write or email a detailed letter to the ASA and let Dr. Moore and the board look into the situation.   They are charged with the duty to govern our association in an objective manner that is in the best interests of the entire breed.   It's in all of our best interests(no matter what breed we represent) to make sure that our customers are pleased enough with their purchases and buying experience that they will become repeat customers.  To ensure this, each complaint or disagreement should be investigated thoroughly and objectively by the association if the parties involved cannot agree on settlement.

I am confident that  Dr. Moore and the members of the ASA board feel as I do about resolving any concerns that our customers may have.  Please contact them with the details of your situation--they won't know the details or your perspective unless you provide them with the information.  My hope is that in the near future you will be able to post another message on SP telling us how well you were treated by the ASA staff and board and how hard they worked to make you a satisfied customer of the Shorthorn breed.

Please let me know if I can be of service to you or help you get in touch with our association or any of the board members.  I wish you the best in resolving your concerns about your purchase.

Best Regards,

Lynn Tenold
Oakbar Ranch

 

[redwingfarm]

I also have gone through a problem with a breeder who  sold us a show heifer and when she would not breed, he basically laughed at me and told it was my tough luck.  I tried twice to get him to do something, anything, but he totally refused and wouldn't even respond.  He was at the time selling heifers regularly in state sponsored consignment sales and should have been aware of the rules.  Since that point I have gotten on our state board and have vowed to not let him do this to anyone else if I can help it,  the last sale he consigned in I called the sale manager ahead of the sale to warn of the problems I had in the past.  In your case I would suggest the same approach, let sale managers know in sales he consigns to,  the 15% commission  that a sale manager receives is not worth the potential problems down the line.  You may not get your problem solved today but you will do everyone a service by stopping this guy for hurting someone in the future.

 

[Lucky7]

Just because the Shorthorn Assoc has a Recommended Terms of Sale does not mean that the sellers have to abide by those rules.  Always read the terms of conditions and listen to announcements from the block.  Always know what you are buying.

 

[BAILEYFARMS]

off subject what ever happened to the sonny bull you had

 

[Show Heifer]

Some assoc EXCLUDE show heifers from the breeding guarante since they are pushed way too hard on feed, put in unnatural invironments (coolers, then heat of the show ring, etc), and traveled in all sorts of conditions. BUT, if the breeder was worth the crap on the bottem of his shoes, he would have offered to either try and breed her, or stand behind the heifer.

I guess that is why I deal with people I trust, and that is darn few!

 

[Cattledog]

Some assoc EXCLUDE show heifers from the breeding guarante since they are pushed way too hard on feed, put in unnatural invironments (coolers, then heat of the show ring, etc), and traveled in all sorts of conditions. BUT, if the breeder was worth the crap on the bottem of his shoes, he would have offered to either try and breed her, or stand behind the heifer.

I guess that is why I deal with people I trust, and that is darn few!

Exactly!  I only do business with people who have a good reputation and those that I know who stand behind their product!  I have heard too many horror stories to make blind purchases.

 

[Doc]

Just because the Shorthorn Assoc has a Recommended Terms of Sale does not mean that the sellers have to abide by those rules.  Always read the terms of conditions and listen to announcements from the block.  Always know what you are buying.

But if they state in their catalog the cattle sell under the breed recommended terms, then they have to abide by them.
The Shortie terms state:
4. Females are guaranteed breeders, regardless of age at date of sale, except if after date of sale, female is flushed (single egg or multiple ovulation) prior to being bred for a natural calf.
Options for Return or Adjustment
1. All claims for adjustment or refund must be made in writing either within six months of the sale date, or not later than six months after the animal reaches 18 months of age, with the exception of misrepresentation of service sire.
2. In the event an animal is claimed to be a non-breeder, the animal may be returned to the farm of the seller if in good condition and complying with the health requirements of the seller’s state. The seller shall be entitled to six months trial following the return of the animal in which to prove that the animal is a breeder. If, at the end of six months, the seller is unable to prove that the animal is a breeder, the seller shall, at the option of the buyer, replace the animal with another of equal value or refund the purchase price. The return of the full purchase price shall in any case be deemed as full satisfaction and settlement. Any expense incurred for transporting an animal claimed to be a non-breeder back to the seller’s farm shall be the responsibility of the seller. If the seller proves the animal to be a breeder, it shall be the obligation of the purchaser to take delivery of the animal and pay all expense incurred for transportation back to the purchaser’s farm.
 
They do not have the stipulation in there about showing makes them exempt. I have seen a few (very few) in Shorthorn sales stating that though.

 

[feeder duck]

As a shorthorn breeder I am sorry you are on the bad end of a bad deal.  I personally am not asking you to tell who. If it where me I would not be shy to let everyone know so they would not buy from this breeder again. If they are an established breeder they will make it right. If they are a jonny come lately then they do not belong in this breed anyway!


  Jeff Cornell
  Cornell Shorthorns

 

[Dutch Acres]

Good luck with the ASA, maybe the new secretary will take a harder position on this.  I have had the same problem and since that time have looked much closer at the sale terms in large breeder catalogs.  If you look several of the most reputable breeders state they comply to the ASA guarantee then go onto list all their personal exceptions.  Hence it is no longer an ASA guarantee, it is the personal breeders guarantee.  I have run this up the flagpole at the ASA but got no action, probably because many of these breeders are the leaders with very large and lucrative production sales every year.  Personally we have just stopped considering those sales as ones we should attend.  We have spent 5 figures frequently for genetics we want but now we only do it after having a personal conversation with the breeder and obtain clarification of their guarantee.  It always comes down to buyer beware which is sad.  Personally we live to guarantee as it is written.  If a female doesn't breed we want 6 months to try it ourselves.  If we don't get her bred we will replace her with an animal of equal quality (always difficult to agree on) or give the money back.  Most breeders will give sale credit only.

 

[red]

Redwing- at least I know it's not the heifer you bought from us! Especially since she calved last month!  (lol)
We bought a heifer that just wouldn't breed either. She went to feedlot. Probably broke even w/ her.

Red

 

[the angus111]

I want to thank everybody for their overwhelming support.  Shorthorn breeders, I am concerned about our Association.  I don't expect the ASA to be our Judicial system, but I think the Executive Secretary and President should sincerely investigate members that fail or refuse to play by the rules and guidelines suggested by the ASA.  What is the point of having the rules??
I am of the opinion that the ASA is nothing more than a registry.  Our foundation is cracked and needs to be fixed.

Rusty Williams

 

[box6rranch]

I tend to agree with you. However unfortunate it is no different than any other breed or organization I know of. Rules and regulations are enforced when it suits them. He who has the most power and influence wins.