Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock

[cwa]

Doc, You never saw me post anything about those 3 cow-killers, either, did you?

  GB, I don't know where that came from!!
  To you & cwa both, if you don't like todays genetics that's fine. I just really wish that y'all wouldn't get on here & act like there isn't a bull or cow worth a D_ _ _, unless they are son or grandson of a bull from 1960 thru 1980. There are some durn good genetics out there today!! If those cattle had been perfect we would still be breeding cattle exactly like that. But instead we are striving to breed a better animal. I agree that some of those genetics will compliment our cattle today, but some of those genetics shouldn't be propagated just because they're 40 years old & still in your tank. I raise Shorthorns, have raised Shorthorns for 36 years & hope to raise them for another 36 years, so when y'all continue to beat that dead horse about how todays genetics are the ruin of the breed ,yea I kinda take it personal. To me we get more respect on this board from people who raise other breeds than a couple of guys who say they love Shorthorn cattle.JMO ;D

Doc,

You are taking all of this the wrong way.  There is no need to take any of this personal.  All we are doing is voicing our difference of opinions on the matter.  Don't we have a right to do so even if we do disagree with you and a few other breeders?  Sorry that you are bothered by what all we had to say on the matter Doc, however at the same time we do have a right to our opinion, and if someone does not like what is going on with the breed, they do have a right to voice what they feel is wrong with it.

Let me ask you a question.  Would you rather people sit back and not say anything and tell other breeders what they want to hear all of the time?  My opinions and information is based on what I have learned from my mentors who are still active Shorthorn Breeders.  These men are highly respected individuals.  They are not just some "Lover of Shorthorns", these guys also raise and produce Shorthorn Cattle.  Some of them have been raising Shorthorns since the 1940's, and are still raising them to this very day.  I may not be an active breeder, and I don't claim to know everything about the breed either, however I have had some really good teachers and mentors (Active Shorthorn Breeders) who have taught me quiet a bit about Shorthorn Cattle here in the last 4 years.  Some of these people you would probably know or have at least heard of.  I can tell you that I  have learned a lot more about the breed, and have gained a lot more knowledge here in the last 4 years than what I learned back when I was actively working with Shorthorn Cattle. 

Apparently you also have not been reading all of the content in my posts.  I did say in my last reply to you that there are "Some bulls" out there that I do like, and yes, there are some good Shorthorn cattle that are still out there.  However, I'm not going to lie to you or anybody else when I say that most show animals (Club Calves) are not functional sound animals.  I respect the fact that you have been raising Shorthorns for 36 years, and if you had read my last post to you I paid you a compliment about your bull "MH on Target", which is a newer bull of today.  My main concern about the shorthorn breed is mainly these club calves that are post legged that do not milk.  There are too many terminal animals out there and not enough maternal animals.  Too many heifers that look like steers are being produced.  However, if people want to continue raising those kinds of animals they have that right, however it's not benefiting the overall Shorthorn Breed IMO.

As far as your comment " If those cattle had been perfect we would still be breeding cattle exactly like that", well there still are some breeders out there that still raise cattle like that in case you did not know.  Apparently today's cattle aren't perfect either considering that TH and PHA has become a problem in the last several years.  Cattle that I am talking about did not have TH and PHA, and they weren't post legged and most of them were a lot more functional than a lot of today's newer Shorthorns are.  Say what you want Doc, however once again I will remind you that I have talked to other Shorthorn Breeders who have been saying the same exact thing that I and GB have been saying all along.  GB and I are not alone. 

Plus you still have not answered my question:  "Why can't the commercial and show people get on the same page and work together to benefit the overall Shorthorn Breed?" 

DOC SAID:
"we get more respect on this board from people who raise other breeds than a couple of guys who say they love Shorthorn cattle."

Nobody is disrespecting you Doc or any other breeder on here.  There were no direct attacks made on anyone.  I cannot help if you are taking my opinions about "The Direction of the Shorthorn Breed" the wrong way.  I have nothing against you as an individual or anyone else on here.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[justintime]

Stone Oak RD Lady Linda 6L was a decent looking female, however, she never really ever produced much. I don't think she ever had a calf that was as good as she was.I saw her many times , and thought she was a nice female but she was a little fine in her makeup and not near as good as some others in this cow line.  She also had a full sister, Stone Oak RD Lady Linda 21N, and it was 21N that was the much better female both in her own appearance and in how she produced.21N hardly missed and always had a great calf. I had a daughter of 21N that was an excellent female. She was named Shadybrook Lady Impact 17X. This female ended up back at Shadybrook and was one of their leading donors. She was still in production at their sale in Sept /06. Lady Impact 17X was what I consider a model cow and she also had a daughter named Shadybrook Lindora 9H who was the dam of Shadybrook Centurion ( who sold for 120,000 to Cates and Rasor in the 2002 sale).

The dam of 6L and 21N was a female named Stone Oak Dutch Linda 2nd and she was an incredible female. She had an outstanding show career and was never beat... she was Grand Champion every time she was shown... and she went on to be an even better brood cow. I truly believe that if Dutch Linda was alive today, she would be one of the most sought after females in the Shorthorn breed. Dutch Linda may have been the very best Shorthorn female I have ever seen.

I have to smile a little when I see some of you referring to some of these genetics as being " Native Breeding stock" . Many of the cattle you have referred to as being Native Shorthorns carried large amounts of dual purpose and dairy Shorthorn blood. The grand dam of Lady Linda 6N and 21N was a dairy Shorthorn cow named Hillrock LF Linda ( D).Dr. Val Kjenrsted  owner of the Stone Oak herd, found Hillrock Linda in a Milking herd in North Dakota. At the time, the Canadian Shorthorn Association  allowed beef and milking Shorthorns to be registered together in the same herd book. The American Shorthorn Association did not allow this as they had two seperate herd books. In the early 70s, the ASA started to allow some of these dairy Shorthorns into their herd book providing they could be traced to the Coates Herd book... which is a bit of a joke as the Coates Herd Book in England has registry's for several breeds.
Many of the bulls that have been mentioned like Four Point Major , also would not have been half as good as they were if they had not had a bunch of dairy Shorthorn blood in their background. Many of the best Shorthorn cattle in Western Canada came from this background. The Four Point cattle, the Nupars, the Ball Dee etc etc etc, all had a dairy Shorthorn component in their make up.
When I think of  so called Native Shorthorns, I think of cattle that will trace to the old Scottish Shorthorns. I doubt if any of these cattle exist today. I have been told by a few Scottish breeders that there are none in Scotland. Almost all the Shorthorn cattle in Britain today have Maine Anjou blood, except for new genetics that have been added in recent years via embryos that were imported.( Personally, I have sent 130 embryos to Scotland, England and Ireland in the past few years. )Shorthorns are one of the hottest breeds over there... and guess what.... the Trump cattle are extremely popular I know there are none of the original Scottish cattle in Canada and the US. There were a few remaining in Argentina a few years ago, but they have been crossed with American and Canadian bloodlines so they do not trace back to these genetics as well.

As for Dr Nold being one of the best Shorthorn breeders ever I would ask you to consider why he left the Shorthorn breed. The reason he left is simply because all his registration papers were pulled by the ASA as none of the cattle blood typed to what their pedigrees said. He was given several opportunities to straighten out his registrations, but he refused to do so. As a result, the ASA had no choice but to destroy his registration papers.  He certainly knew good cattle, but he also was good at finding good grade cattle and giving their their own" made at Weston" pedigree. The Weston herd was a great set of cows and it almost made me cry to see Saler and Angus bulls running with them after they lost their purebred status.

I think that we all need to put some of these petty politics behind us and be willing to call a good beast... a good beast when ever we find one, no matter what it's pedigree is. Not all Trump cattle are bad,, and they certainly are not all good.The same goes for many other of today's most popular bloodlines.  Not all of these so called Native Shorthorns were bad..... but some of them were very bad... and some were very good. We need to be very careful as to what genetics we bring back from the 60s and 70s. The good ones deserve to be used again. The bad ones painted the entire breed as being patchy, wasty, poor muscled and bottle titted. We all know that there some very good cattle and it took more than a generation of breeders to reserve this image of the breed. Be careful what you wish for... you may end up with more than you bargained for.

The fortunate thing about breeding cattle is that you are free to do whatever you want to do. If you don't like any of the cattle that are being shown today.... you are certainly free to go out and find the type you want... and develop a new line of cattle that work in your conditions. Like I have said in previous posts, if you start to produce some cattle that work... others will want to try what you are producing.

 

[itk]

Deerpark Improver was born in 1972, the first cases of TH were documented in a Canadian cow herd. So TH is not some recent club calf problem it has been around for along time it is just recently discovered and is just as prevalent in the commercial sector of the breed as it is the "club calf"  side it is just better documented in the purebred side. PHA was introduced with the formation of the appendix program in the 80's so again it is not something new. The appendix program was a necessary evil to help booster the finances of the association. It also helped us change the type of cattle we were producing at the time so we could stay competitive in the cattle industry. If not for the appendix program the breed might still be trying to downsize our cows.

I personally feel that the purebred industry and commercial industry in our breed are very similar as far as type with BW being the main difference. Look at the success that cattle that originated from Keith Lauer and Marty Loving are having in the showring. I think that there is not much functionality in a Outrageous X DV X Vegas cross cow, but I don't think any of us shorthorn breeders on this site have cows bred that way or would want a cow with that pedigree. I would consider this a club calf momma with a shorthorn pedigree. I would expect to see a cow like that at a club calf breeders place but I don't think that you can lump purebred breeders and club calf breeders with a few shorthorn cows in the same category.

I enjoy seeing cows with old school and outcross pedigrees as much as the next guy. Still I think that bulls like Mission, Osage, Final Solution, JPJ, Aviator and anything that Dereck Jungels breeds can sire calves that will fit all sectors of the cattle industry. Commercial acceptability is a breed wide problem and is not the fault of the purebred sector but of the breed as a whole. The problem stems from the fact that there is a bias toward black cattle today and shorthorns were the last breed to go small when markets changed. It is not Trump's, or Vortec's or Cates or Cagwins fault.

 

[Doc]

cwa, yes , you do have a right to your opinion, I didn't mean that. But we all know what y'alls opinion is on the direction of the Shorthorn breed, so let it go as far as the downfall of the breed is concerned. On other matters I welcome it. As far as when I talked about respect I was talking about the Shorthorn breed as a whole. Go back thru pages of posts & you won't find anybody talking about the downfall of the breed they profess they love , like y'all 2. I do thank you for the compliment on the bull I own & Durango which I own part of.
As far as your ? goes about commercial & show people. The answer is money. People raise what pays the bills or what makes them happy. As long as judges keep picking animals that are different than what is considered your commercial beast then people will keep raising 2 different phenotypical animals. No hard feelings. JMO. But I'm done on this subject. ;D
[/quote]

Doc,

You are taking all of this the wrong way.  There is no need to take any of this personal.   All we are doing is voicing our difference of opinions on the matter.  Don't we have a right to do so even if we do disagree with you and a few other breeders?   Sorry that you are bothered by what all we had to say on the matter Doc, however at the same time we do have a right to our opinion, and if someone does not like what is going on with the breed, they do have a right to voice what they feel is wrong with it.

Let me ask you a question.  Would you rather people sit back and not say anything and tell other breeders what they want to hear all of the time?   My opinions and information is based on what I have learned from my mentors who are still active Shorthorn Breeders.  These men are highly respected individuals.  They are not just some "Lover of Shorthorns", these guys also raise and produce Shorthorn Cattle.  Some of them have been raising Shorthorns since the 1940's, and are still raising them to this very day.  I may not be an active breeder, and I don't claim to know everything about the breed either, however I have had some really good teachers and mentors (Active Shorthorn Breeders) who have taught me quiet a bit about Shorthorn Cattle here in the last 4 years.   Some of these people you would probably know or have at least heard of.   I can tell you that I  have learned a lot more about the breed, and have gained a lot more knowledge here in the last 4 years than what I learned back when I was actively working with Shorthorn Cattle. 

Apparently you also have not been reading all of the content in my posts.  I did say in my last reply to you that there are "Some bulls" out there that I do like, and yes, there are some good Shorthorn cattle that are still out there.   However, I'm not going to lie to you or anybody else when I say that most show animals (Club Calves) are not functional sound animals.  I respect the fact that you have been raising Shorthorns for 36 years, and if you had read my last post to you I paid you a compliment about your bull "MH on Target", which is a newer bull of today.  My main concern about the shorthorn breed is mainly these club calves that are post legged that do not milk.  There are too many terminal animals out there and not enough maternal animals.  Too many heifers that look like steers are being produced.  However, if people want to continue raising those kinds of animals they have that right, however it's not benefiting the overall Shorthorn Breed IMO.

As far as your comment " If those cattle had been perfect we would still be breeding cattle exactly like that", well there still are some breeders out there that still raise cattle like that in case you did not know.  Apparently today's cattle aren't perfect either considering that TH and PHA has become a problem in the last several years.  Cattle that I am talking about did not have TH and PHA, and they weren't post legged and most of them were a lot more functional than a lot of today's newer Shorthorns are.  Say what you want Doc, however once again I will remind you that I have talked to other Shorthorn Breeders who have been saying the same exact thing that I and GB have been saying all along.  GB and I are not alone. 

Plus you still have not answered my question:  "Why can't the commercial and show people get on the same page and work together to benefit the overall Shorthorn Breed?"   

DOC SAID:
"we get more respect on this board from people who raise other breeds than a couple of guys who say they love Shorthorn cattle."

Nobody is disrespecting you Doc or any other breeder on here.  There were no direct attacks made on anyone.  I cannot help if you are taking my opinions about "The Direction of the Shorthorn Breed" the wrong way.   I have nothing against you as an individual or anyone else on here.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


[/quote]

 

[cwa]

Justintime,

Referring to the statement about the Scottish Genetics, I've been told that there is some semen left in some of the tanks here in the States by some of the older breeders who I know.

As far as Dr. Nold goes, I have heard a different story from a guy who lived in North Dakota who personally knew Dr. Nold.  This person also reminded me that we have to remember that there is always two sides to a story. 

 

[cwa]

DOC SAID:  " The answer is money. People raise what pays the bills or what makes them happy"

I understand the need to make a profit, however I do not agree that it is right to sacrifice the whole entire breed for the sake of profit alone. 

Take care Doc.  ;D

 

[Jill]

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I really wouldn't question much of what justintime puts in a post, if he says something negative about Dr. Nold I would have to assume he is correct, he seems to be as knowledgable about this breed, actually more so than anyone I have ever met in my lifetime.

 

[cwa]

Deerpark Improver was born in 1972, the first cases of TH were documented in a Canadian cow herd. So TH is not some recent club calf problem it has been around for along time it is just recently discovered and is just as prevalent in the commercial sector of the breed as it is the "club calf"  side it is just better documented in the purebred side. PHA was introduced with the formation of the appendix program in the 80's so again it is not something new. The appendix program was a necessary evil to help booster the finances of the association. It also helped us change the type of cattle we were producing at the time so we could stay competitive in the cattle industry. If not for the appendix program the breed might still be trying to downsize our cows.

I personally feel that the purebred industry and commercial industry in our breed are very similar as far as type with BW being the main difference. Look at the success that cattle that originated from Keith Lauer and Marty Loving are having in the showring. I think that there is not much functionality in a Outrageous X DV X Vegas cross cow, but I don't think any of us shorthorn breeders on this site have cows bred that way or would want a cow with that pedigree. I would consider this a club calf momma with a shorthorn pedigree. I would expect to see a cow like that at a club calf breeders place but I don't think that you can lump purebred breeders and club calf breeders with a few shorthorn cows in the same category.

I enjoy seeing cows with old school and outcross pedigrees as much as the next guy. Still I think that bulls like Mission, Osage, Final Solution, JPJ, Aviator and anything that Dereck Jungels breeds can sire calves that will fit all sectors of the cattle industry. Commercial acceptability is a breed wide problem and is not the fault of the purebred sector but of the breed as a whole. The problem stems from the fact that there is a bias toward black cattle today and shorthorns were the last breed to go small when markets changed. It is not Trump's, or Vortec's or Cates or Cagwins fault.

I am fully aware of the TH coming from the "Deerpark Improver" bull, however TH and PHA did not come from Native or Dual Purpose Shorthorns. 

Here is a question that an older breeder who does not have a computer who has been breeding Shorthorn Cattle for over 50 years wanted me to ask you guys:

If the Shorthorn Breed is making progress, how come it is now #11 or #12 on the ladder of breeds of popularity?  He told me that he remembers back when the breed years ago was #2 or #3. 

Plus the registrations have dropped down over the years.   

 

[cwa]

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I really wouldn't question much of what justintime puts in a post, if he says something negative about Dr. Nold I would have to assume he is correct, he seems to be as knowledgable about this breed, actually more so than anyone I have ever met in my lifetime.

Well perhaps so, and I do know who Justintime is.  I have a lot of respect for Justintime, and I think he is one of the greatest Shorthorn Breeders around, however we still need to remember that there is always 2 sides to a story. 

 

[justintime]

CWA... I am only saying what I know, and I was very closely connected to the Weston herd several years ago. I used to visit that herd several times a year. I bought several herd bulls from Doc Nold. I purchased one of these bulls at the top of the National Polled Congress in Louisville where he was Supreme Champion. A few years later I tried to buy another Grand Champion at the Polled Congress in Omaha and was runner up bidder. This bull was Molly's Defender's Adair ( Surge) and he sold for $15500. I found out later that it was fortunate that I did not buy Surge as he was a full brother to the bull I bought at Louisville, although their pedigrees were completely different. This was not an isolated case. I knew the cows in this herd very well after seeing them so many times for several years, and it was not uncommon to be told a completely different story on the same cow on different visits. Trust me, I know a lot more about this.
I am not saying that the Weston herd was not a great set of cattle... it was..... but it became very evident that many of the cattle were not what they appeared to be... on paper at least. Many cattle from my part of the world went to this herd, but their pedigrees changed once they got there.  

 

[Doc]

Hey JIT, I appreciate your informative posts with the knowledge of the breed. Just finished reading again " Mostly About Shorthorns" by Frank Harding, have you ever read it?

 

[itk]

Here is why

1. When every other breed sold their soul and went black we stayed true to our breed identity and stayed red white and roan. Call us shorty breeders what you want but we're not sellouts.

2. Cattle got real big in the 80's. When markets demanded smaller framed cattle we had trouble downsizing.

3. We have BW problems as a breed.

4. 150 years ago longhorns were the most popular breed. 50 years ago herefords were the most popular breed. 20 years ago simmy's were the most popular breed. It still doesn't make it right. The cattle industry works in cycles it will come back to shorthorns

The breed has seen alot of growth over the last few years but with a small association if numbers go down just a bit it looks worse then it is. Come to junior nationals in KC this summer talk to the kids about how passionate they are about shorthorns and then tell me the future isn't bright for this breed. Yes, I do drink the ASA Kool-Aid.

 

[DL]

Deerpark Improver was born in 1972, the first cases of TH were documented in a Canadian cow herd. So TH is not some recent club calf problem it has been around for along time it is just recently discovered and is just as prevalent in the commercial sector of the breed as it is the "club calf"  side it is just better documented in the purebred side. PHA was introduced with the formation of the appendix program in the 80's so again it is not something new. The appendix program was a necessary evil to help booster the finances of the association. It also helped us change the type of cattle we were producing at the time so we could stay competitive in the cattle industry. If not for the appendix program the breed might still be trying to downsize our cows.

I came into this discussion late and will need to start from the front to get the essence of the conversation but to clarify a point itk made re TH

The tibial hemimelia syndrome was first described in 1951 in Scotland in Galloway cattle.  The Scottish Galloway Association used test breeding and pregnancy termination to identify carriers and eliminate the autosomal recessive defect from Galloway breeding stock. The syndrome was described in the US as in 1974 , and subsequently a case report of a female Simmental calf. A decade later tibial hemimelia was described in 6 registered genetically related Shorthorn calves -  three of these were US and 3 were Canadian - they all traced to the same ancestors. It is not known if (perhaps) the Galloway and Shorthorn mutations are the same as there are no Galloway samples available. Since according to Harlan Ritchie the only 2 true "pure breeds" on the British Isles are the Galloway and the Highland, if those mutations were the same (and since there is apparently Galloway blood in Shorthorn cattle) that would mean that the Galloways were the origin of the mutation - an intriguing possibility that we cannot confirm or test...

TH actually reached a level where people were concerned (when the gene mutation reached a critical frequency in the population) the end of the 1990's. It is believed that since the gene is involved in both hind limb formation and apparently hair that breeders have been selecting for a phenotype that maintains this lethal allele at high frequency. Since most commercial breeders don't care all that much about hair, but do  like cattle that can walk,  I would think it unlikely that they would select for the THC phenotype.

JIT as always you are a wealth of information - have you read the books by Otis - "The story of the Milking Shorthorn in the US and another I haven't gotten my grubby little hands on yet?

 

[OH Breeder]

DOC SAID:  " The answer is money. People raise what pays the bills or what makes them happy"

I understand the need to make a profit, however I do not agree that it is right to sacrifice the whole entire breed for the sake of profit alone. 

Take care Doc.  ;D

As you mentioned in one of your other post. There is always two sides to the story. There are also two views to what you are saying. I in no way think that I am sellling out because I have some Double Visions, etc in my herd. If they can raise a calf that  is saleable , rebreed with minimal assitance and need no help with calving they stay regardless of their genetics. I send a few to the market and one or two in the area. As DOC, JIT and others have said, that is what makes this business great. You choose what you want to do and develop your herd. I do not see the ..."whole entire breed suffering"- It is your vantage point and where you are.
JIT thank you as always for the ongoing information. I learn something new with every post about the breed. I would enjoy sitting and having a cup of coffee in your pasture  and talking cattle. Really enjoy it.
This is the way I look at, you can be a part of the problem or part of the solution. If you truely feel there are issues with the breed, then start a herd or coop with the fellas that are advising you and hit the road. Market your animals and make a difference. JMO

 

[justintime]

The beauty about this breed ... and any other breed, is that you are free to breed and raise any type of cattle you want to. If you are not pleased with what is happening in the show ring, then stay away from shows... do your own thing. As long as the cattle your raise give you enjoyment and help pay the bills, who can argue with what you are doing ... and what business is it of theirs. If you study your lessons and put the right genetics together to produce a good product for the market niche you are aiming for, you should be able to develop a market for them providing you advertise and promote them properly. I find that most cattlemen are pretty good at the production side of  the business but they really suck swamp water when it comes to marketing their product.
As I have said on here before, cattle producers can be divided into two groups.... cattle breeders and cattle multipliers. Neither one is above the other in stature as both have an important role in any breed. The cattle breeders are usually the first to introduce new bloodlines into their herds... and the cattle multipliers follow their lead. So if you don't like what is happening in any sector of your breed, maybe you should consider becoming a cattle breeder and use the genetics you think will work the best in your herd. At least you will have the opportunity to " do your own thing" but there is one drawback.... you will have to quit complaining about the poor genetics other breeders are producing, as they really shouldn't affect what you are doing in your herd. As they say... lead, follow or get out of the way.

 

[itk]

DL, Improver 57 is a breed legend like Draftpick or Cunia in the maines. If I remember right he shows up in like 1/3 of all shorthorn pedigrees. So needless to say his contribution to the TH problem is widesread. His daughters are absolutely awesome cows that are moderate framed, sound and functional. Therefore he found his way into many commercial herds long before Double Stuff was born and the shorthorn show steer as we know it was around.

 

[justintime]

Doc... I forgot to mention that I have read Frank Hardings book. I found a copy on eBay a couple years ago and was able to get it bought. It is a good background history of the Shorthorn breed about a half century or more ago.

 

[shortyisqueen]

Here is a question that an older breeder who does not have a computer who has been breeding Shorthorn Cattle for over 50 years wanted me to ask you guys:

If the Shorthorn Breed is making progress, how  come it is now #11 or #12 on the ladder of breeds of popularity?  He told me that he remembers back when the breed years ago was #2 or #3. 

Plus the registrations have dropped down over the years.   

If the Shorthorn cattle of the 1970s were so moderate, functional, sound, productive and efficient, why were people not flocking to them at the time? With what you have brought up, they must have been the most financially rewarding cattle around - so why were the registrations falling then??

And furthermore, reminiscing about the past is little proof that these Shorthorns were producing a better product. Were they? Show me the carcass data on a group of 1970s steers and how it would have fit the premium markets today. I'm curious as to how their backfat and ribeye measurements would stack up.

Success in the showring has allowed us to move more genetics into commercial herds than we ever would have been able to without it. If the Shorthorn breed looked today like they did 40 years ago, I can name one breeder who wouldn't be in it.

 

[cwa]

I realize that there are some things that I have said on here that some of you have found offensive.  I will once again say that everything that I had to say was not intended as a personal attack on anyone.  I have been monitoring this forum for quiet a long time now, and had read many posts on here.  I had been very hesitant to sign up and post on here for a very long time, however it finally got to a point where I felt like it was time for me to finally come on here and say what I had to say.  I felt that it was time for some people to hear what I had to say in regards to the direction that the "Shorthorn Breed" has been going in here in the last several years.   

I have been somewhat associated with the Shorthorn Breed since 1981, and have seen a lot of changes over the past 26 years.  I am quiet familiar with most of what all of you had to say in regards to the history of the breed along with other matters that are related to the breed. 

I must say that I am personally saddened that the Shorthorn Breed is so divided between the Show and Commercial People.  It was not always that way, and it wasn't that way back when I was actively working with Shorthorns.  I am also saddened that there is now such a huge emphasis on solid colors especially the huge emphasis on black when it comes to a lot of the commercial breeders, so I am not placing all of the blame on Club Calf Producers.  I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I think the hang up about animals should be black or should have solid colors is ridiculous.  No matter what color the coat of an animal is underneath all of that hair the meat is red, and it really shouldn't matter.  Some Roan and White Animals are just as good if not better than some of the red animals. 

I also remember back when I use to really look forward to getting my monthly "Shorthorn Country" Magazine subscription.  However, back in August of this past year, I decided after my subscription to Shorthorn Country ran out that I would not be renewing it again.  It had gotten to a point where I could no longer find the same diversity and wide variety of Shorthorn Genetics that I use to see in the "Shorthorn Country" Magazine years ago.  Today anytime I look at a Sale Catalog it seems just about everything is either Trump, Sonny, Double Vision, or some other Steer Bull.  The breed seems to be overly saturated with these genetics, and there really doesn't seem to be a wide variety of genetics out there to offer like there use to be.  At least not here in the U.S. 

I remember back when the old "Hoyt & Sons" operation out in Burns, Oregon was still around.  I also remember when you looked at Hoyt's sale catalogs, you would always find a wide variety of genetics.  You could find everything from Dual Purpose, Irish, Beef, Australian, and some Maine Influenced genetics.  There was a wide variety of bulls that were used in the old Hoyt operation.  However I realize those days are now over. 

After reading some of tonight's posts, and considering what all has been going on with the ASA here in the more recent years, I have now also decided due to all of these changes and other personal matters  in my life (which have nothing to do with cattle) that I will never again be involved with Shorthorn Cattle or any other cattle period.  I have decided to bring a 26 year old passion and interest of mine to a complete end once and for all.  It is time for me to move on to other ventures in my life.  I will always remember, and cherish the memories of my days working with Shorthorn Cattle back when I was a teenager and when I was in my early 20's.  However that part of my life is now over.  It's time for me to move on. 

I once again apologize to anyone who I offended on here, however I said the things I said, because I felt they needed to be said.  I feel this is a sad time for the Shorthorn Breed.  None the less, I do wish all of you success in your operations. 

Take care, and goodbye  ;D

CWA 

 

[DL]

DL, Improver 57 is a breed legend like Draftpick or Cunia in the maines. If I remember right he shows up in like 1/3 of all shorthorn pedigrees. So needless to say his contribution to the TH problem is widesread. His daughters are absolutely awesome cows that are moderate framed, sound and functional. Therefore he found his way into many commercial herds long before Double Stuff was born and the shorthorn show steer as we know it was around.

Itk - my point was not that there are not TH carriers in commercial herds - Deerpark Improver has 635 registered progeny - chances are good they weren't all show steers  - my point was that like other recessive mutations there appears to be a phenotype associated with the carrier state and that phenotype is valued in some arena - with TH the phenotype is the hairy straight legged show beast - this of course does not preclude people using the bull for other attributes - but I would betcha that there are fewer TH calves in commercial herds. It was the single trait selection of the show circuit that resulted in the TH mutation reaching a level where it could not be ignored. Have a quadrant 4 day!