Shorthorn question

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stick

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If a Shorthorn Red Angus cross can't be registered as a Durham Red because it test positive for TH, could it be registered as an Appendix(Shorthorn Plus)? I saw a heifer calf in a sale flyer that was listed as a Durham Red but in the footnotes said it was TH carrier. They also said registration was pending. I've since lost the flyer and can't remember the bloodlines or where the sale was. My wife claims I send more time with sale catalogs and flyer this time of year than I do with her and the kids. Hmmm, maybe that's where that flyer went.. :)
 

Jill

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From what I remember Durham Reds are the only ones with restrictions, it should still be able to be registed as an appendix shorthorn.
 

OH Breeder

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Direct from ASA


"While the same cross could be achieved under the Appendix Program already in place, the Durham Red Program will differ as performance reporting is mandatory. Red Angus EPD’s will be incorporated into the analysis of all Durham Red’s performance calculations. Durham Reds will receive a performance certificate in place of a registration certificate until birth weight, calving ease score, weaning weight, yearling weight, and yearling scrotal circumference is submitted. Additionally, all Durham Reds will need to be proven TH free by test or pedigree before an official registration certificate is issued. Only after receiving this data will an official Durham Red registration certificate be issued by the ASA."
 

aj

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Why in the world isn't pha include in requirements. Is it because it isn't licensed or something. The durham red deal in a lot of ways is the only program in which the shorthorn breed will be taken seriously. You know that someone will take advantage of this deal. If you are a serious breeder you will demand a pha test also. The shorthorn board should stop this potential nightmare senario right by god now or they will have a huge wreck on there hands to dump on someone like bolze 10 years from now. I tested 5 durham red bull calves for th and pha also. All were clean except for 1 th positive. We must start this durham red deal off right as foundation herds are being started. I tested for pha because it is to simple not to. I have begged and begged  and begged to find out if nobodies fool is a pha carrier for 2 years and and no one speaks up. I don't like or use that line but it needs to be known. If you want to use pha positive cattle in the showring deal I really don't care but please lets not screw up the durham red deal for 5 years of profit when this could become a great line of cattle for a 100 years. It is to darn easy to test durham red cattle for pha right now instead of fighting another nightmare 10 years from now. ???
 

stick

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now this brings my next question.... If they can't be registered one way, then why should they be able to be registered they other?
It's getting close to Halloween, so I guess I'm stirring the pot, so to speak..
 

Show Dad

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DL - Let me rephrase. If I were the RA I wouldn't want my brand, even in a crossbreding program, in any way associated with a genetic defect. So maybe in the creation of this program they influenced the bylaws.

Or another thought. Could it be a way the ASA is trying to get tough with genetic defects or develop a premium brand? Though allowing them to register as a Plus could be a pressure relief valve and keep the cash flowing.
 

Show Heifer

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Stick, my friend, you think too much!!! I have an extra broom if you need one!!! (clapping) (clapping)

JMHO, but I think someone in the shortie breed thought ahead and spoke with the RA people....they agreed to develope a breed, but the RA folks hate genetic defects, hate unproductive cattle, thus their stance on negative genetic defects and mandatory production records.  Shortie folks went along due to the huge money they think will pour in from registration of these crossbred cattle.

And DL, I agree, shorthorn plus is a negative name to me....its like saying "its shorthorn plus something that will make it better."  Huh, is that really what the breed wants to portray??

So yes, showdad, I think you are right!!!
 

Show Dad

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OK, DL and SH both told me I was on the right track (BTW, thanks ladies). Maybe I should just quite now and walk away (slowly back away from the keyboard). But it would seem to me that it the ASA can see the benefit of getting tough with genetic defects in a crossbreding program then why don't they take the same track with the main breed registrations?

Answer: politics, power and money. (for Knabe: those corrupting elements of a capitalistic system symbolized by the almighty dollar.)
 

Cowfarmer65

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Why would you bother dicking around with a TH carrier. Cull her and get it out of the breed..Durham Reds. F1 crossbreds. Not a breed. Commercal breeders have been doin it for years. I guess in reality if you trace most of the American Shorthorn pedigrees you'd be hard pressed to find an actual purebred in the extended pedigree.
 

Show Dad

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Cowfarmer65 said:
I can stand corrected. I've been wrong before. Someone commented on RA people being against genetic defects.....lmao
The whole breed is created on a recessive gene.

CF65 - When did color become a defect? ;)

As for us RA people, we may have our (recessive) quirks, but I wouldn't call us defective (which you didn't but others might). (lol)
 

stick

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Cf65, we've purchased cattle out of Canada in the past, if I remember right, didn't they(maybe they still do)  have different colored pedigrees for purebred and graded up cattle? What were their rules for the graded cattle? It's been a few years.

 

aj

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I think we need to be carefull blasting the durham red concept. I realize that a f1 is not going to be real consistent breeding. However....is the santa gertrudis not a breed after years of line breeding? I have been told that there are more limi-flex and black maine anjou(which is basically the same thing as the shorthorn plus deal) as a % of the breed then there are in appendix in the shorthorn breed. I really respect the herford and the angus breeds for not getting into the appendix deal but I hear alot of angus are 1-8th holstein and alot of herfords are 1-8th simmental illegally anyway. I interpet the durham red deal to based on selection pressure over the years as mandatory performance weight reporting. Who knows what it will become. But yea beware to the maine anjou breeder who is raising black? maine anjou cattle who look more like angus to cast the first stone at the shorthorn appendix program.  ;)
 

Show Dad

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AJ - Amen!!!  (clapping)

This chase to make one breed have it all sometimes gets out of hand. Don't get me wrong I think breeding out defects and breeding in benefits is a good thing. But like Momma always said, "you can have to much of a good thing." The idea of a cross was to do if for the benefits. But somehow we have come to the point of mutt-ification (where there is a little everything) in our breeds.

Now is that a bad thing?
 

OH Breeder

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This may not be popular, but how many folks that are criticizing the program actually breed Shorthorns? I DO NOT think that shorthorn cattle are "unproductive". We all have our likes and or dislikes. But, I love the breed I have raised for years!

As far as pedigrees, i think if you look at the pedigrees of many cattle today, Mossy Oak a good example, they aren't always what they are suppose to be. Some of us still have asterick free cattle in their herd. Caution with blanket statements.
 

Telos

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The day is already hear when we distinguish the different breeds by hair color and perhaps ear. It is neither a good or bad thing, but just the way it is. 

I think the seed stock producers that survive into the future will need to have credibility and practice a 'code of ethics'. Their performance testing will need to be objective and must prove to have real value for cow- calf operators.

If applied correctly, the Durham Red program will be a great thing.

 

Show Heifer

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In order for ANY new breed to develope, a cross must occur. So although I still laugh and call them crossbreds (thats what they are)  they are still relevant to further the genetic potential of cattle.  I agree with the concept, but not nessararily how it is being handled.
And as I have said many times before: There are no purebred breeds left. 
 
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