OH Breeder
Well-known member
What about this guy? Anyone? Do you know these cattle AJ?
4082791 AR CHEROKEE 134B
x4080728 AR APACHE 3A
4082791 AR CHEROKEE 134B
x4080728 AR APACHE 3A
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Okotoks
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I know of very successful programs that 1. never linebred, always bought their herd sires but never bring in new females.
2 always buy their bulls and bring in new females on occasion
3 used both home raised and also purchased bulls.
4 always use their own bulls and don't buy any females ( I thought this was the definiition of a closed herd, when you AI and cross between two breeds I don't think that qualifies as a closed herd!)
and just about any other combination of the above. The Butterfield herd was an interesting example of a herd that brought in females but did a lot of line breeding and often showed animals 3 genertions plus of their own breeding.Rarey bought new herd bulls.I have commercial bull customers that want bulls of different breeding when they come back for replacements.
2 always buy their bulls and bring in new females on occasion
3 used both home raised and also purchased bulls.
4 always use their own bulls and don't buy any females ( I thought this was the definiition of a closed herd, when you AI and cross between two breeds I don't think that qualifies as a closed herd!)
and just about any other combination of the above. The Butterfield herd was an interesting example of a herd that brought in females but did a lot of line breeding and often showed animals 3 genertions plus of their own breeding.Rarey bought new herd bulls.I have commercial bull customers that want bulls of different breeding when they come back for replacements.
kfacres
Well-known member
ya but you are older than the rest of us combined.. Other than maybe your partner JIT. <beer>Okotoks said:
1- happens all the time- key is never bringing in new outside sourced females.
2- 3 key word occasion? Was this once in ten years? That’s not worth mentioning. Almost as if never happened.
3- I don’t know any producer who doesn’t do number 3- even if they are a linebreeder. All linebreeding programs need a little bit of outcross every once in a while- whether it’s completely different cow families, which are unrelated (big operations), or purchasing something. Most (99%) of the breed’s (any) producers do not have the numbers to maintain completely unrelated lines on the same farm. I only know of one operation that claims to be closed genetically for over 50 years. Secretly, I know they had an outcross, different breed sire at one point, but that’s under the table knowledge.. so in all reality—they even had atleast one sire that was outcrossed.
4- Closed herd physically, or closed herd genetically? Different.
Most commercial people are strong against linebreeding- as well are the uneducated. They are scared of it.
aj
Well-known member
Wow ohio.....my new hero.....I looked up the first number and it was FA prefix back to the garden of eden. I've heard of Frosty Acre's before.....seen ads.
kfacres
Well-known member
OH Breeder said:
call me crazy.. but although both bulls have the same prefix on every anscestor-- it's not the same as the owners? A dedicated buyer? I'd say...
Okotoks
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An example from the Butterfield herd.
BUTTERFIELD F L'S TEXAS -M460202-
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BALGERRAN IRIS 95Y X-F656228-
BUTTERFIELD HIGH RIGGER -[CAN]M467668-
CHS ROYALTY X-M464330-
SHADYBROOK PICTURE PERFECT 61E -F666923-
HS PICTURE PERFECT 549 -[CAN]F678622-
BUTTERFIELD LOOSE CANNON 13L
BUTTERFIELD F L'S TEXAS -M460202-
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BALGERRAN IRIS 95Y X-F656228-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 18F X-F667075-
ECHODALE HOEDOWN X-M458197-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 84B X-F660036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 2Z -F654491-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 35R
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BUTTERFIELD HIGH RIGGER -[CAN]M467668-
SHADYBROOK PICTURE PERFECT 61E -F666923-
BUTTERFIELD LORD JIM 11L X-[CAN]M469402-
MATLOCK TORPEDO 49T X-M456929-
WINALOT MARGARET 26Z X-F661089-
BRANDY HILL SUSAN MARGARET X-F641766-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 10N
BUTTERFIELD CEASAR AUGUSTUS 3C X-M463512-
BUTTERFIELD FACSIMILE 10F X-M466379-
BUTTERFIELD FLASH 28C X-F661036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 6K X-[CAN]F674403-
ECHODALE HOEDOWN X-M458197-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 84B X-F660036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 2Z -F654491-
BUTTERFIELD F L'S TEXAS -M460202-
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BALGERRAN IRIS 95Y X-F656228-
BUTTERFIELD HIGH RIGGER -[CAN]M467668-
CHS ROYALTY X-M464330-
SHADYBROOK PICTURE PERFECT 61E -F666923-
HS PICTURE PERFECT 549 -[CAN]F678622-
BUTTERFIELD LOOSE CANNON 13L
BUTTERFIELD F L'S TEXAS -M460202-
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BALGERRAN IRIS 95Y X-F656228-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 18F X-F667075-
ECHODALE HOEDOWN X-M458197-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 84B X-F660036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 2Z -F654491-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 35R
BUTTERFIELD ABLE SEAMAN X-M461819-
BUTTERFIELD HIGH RIGGER -[CAN]M467668-
SHADYBROOK PICTURE PERFECT 61E -F666923-
BUTTERFIELD LORD JIM 11L X-[CAN]M469402-
MATLOCK TORPEDO 49T X-M456929-
WINALOT MARGARET 26Z X-F661089-
BRANDY HILL SUSAN MARGARET X-F641766-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 10N
BUTTERFIELD CEASAR AUGUSTUS 3C X-M463512-
BUTTERFIELD FACSIMILE 10F X-M466379-
BUTTERFIELD FLASH 28C X-F661036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 6K X-[CAN]F674403-
ECHODALE HOEDOWN X-M458197-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 84B X-F660036-
BUTTERFIELD DORA 2Z -F654491-
aj
Well-known member
Aren't there very successful herds (we'll say in Canada) that embryo transplant a mating........and get frame scores al over the place(frame 5's to frame 8). This is unpredictable. Its fun but unpredictable. They are purebreds but unpredictable. You can take a frame 5 herford bull with nothing but frame 5's in his extended pedigree........and breed him to an Angus cow with nothing but frame 5's in her extended pedigree and resulting mating is NOTHING BUT frame 5's. So here crossbred cattle are more predictable. The thing about registered cattle is that every body does the flavor(bull) of the month club. They breed cattle how some judge says to do it. They are me to breeders. They are always chasing fads and trends. They do what is hot. They try and guess what will be hot. They don't set up 3 or 4 indexes to try and move the herd to a preconcieved point. To me Larry Crosaint is a great Red Angus breeder. He sets a path and he hammers and hammers and hammers to get there. He does not let some show cattle judge tell what to do ....he has a disciplined program. He hammers and hammers and stacks pedigrees and hammers and hammers. He is consistent. No excuses. No wine spritzers.You test cattle and index cattle and you use cattle that have been tested.jmo
kfacres
Well-known member
So the sire is a half brother, half sister result, who is basically half 4/8 outcross to the Butterfield herd.Okotoks said:
The dam, originates from the same cow family as the sire: and her sire is a half brother to the sire. The dam is also half 4/8 outcross- with 1/8 different cow family injection.
That’s cool—but what would bother me- if I were in that situation: was my genetic selections not coming from a set breeding program… The Shadybrook cow- was from two purchased parents- as was the Winalot cow. Granted, I have never seen any of these animals, and it’s highly likely I never will…
The real question is, what’s the connection to this pedigree to the Diamond Okotoks herd?
How long did it take you to find that one? Can you find another within 5 min.?
Okotoks
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No connection of any significance to the Diamond herd. I saw this cow on New Year's day and found her pedigree fascinating, I think some other SPer's might as well. I could find another in 5 minutes BS but this one is a good exapmle of the herd. Only 5 cows left there, a group went to Martin's in Ontario last November. (dog)Cut the BS said:
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Cut the BS said:
thats not what you asked....you said available AI sires. Both bulls have semen listed for sale. now the AI sire has to have three generations and be owned by the people that bred him? Geesh!
kfacres
Well-known member
OH Breeder said:
I thought that was obvious <party> <alien>... BTW. I wasn't asking the questions... just stating thoughts.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Cut the BS said:
No that's BS.
Okotoks
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Agree! He should just drop "Cut the" and it would be more accurateOH Breeder said:Cut the BS said:
No that's BS.
thunderdownunder
Well-known member
Okotoks said:Agree! He should just drop "Cut the" and it would be more accurateOH Breeder said:Cut the BS said:
No that's BS.
<beer>
kfacres
Well-known member
will daughter chime in?
OH Breeder said:
I've been a fan of "Albaugh's Frosty Acres" for a long time. I had a chance to visit Norris and Ron at Albaugh Ranch in Fallon last June. They are wonderful people. The AR and FA prefixes are genetically the same. J.E. Albaugh started Frosty Acres back in the 40's. His sons went on to continue the breeding. More recently, the brothers split the herd, and now the Frosty Acres cattle w/ the AR prefix are located at Albaugh Ranch located in Fallon, Nevada. They've maintained a semi closed herd since 46 and the cattle all trace back to the original 1820 herd book. They've used Haumont bulls (the last two bought sight unseen from Mary Bell Cooksley) throughout the years. Norris suggested I visit Haumont Farms. When I spoke to Mary Bell she said that gets a call from the Albaughs every 25 years or so for an outcross bull. The Albaugh Shorthorns can be dual registered in ASA and the AMSA Native program.
Their cattle are not pampered, are grass fed, well documented, and emphasis economical production of beef under normal ranching conditions. They are not show cattle. They do not have the birth weight problems that exist in the "outside" Shorthorn world. Ron told me their calves average in the 70 pound range. They utlize linnear measurements in their selection. I was extremely impressed with their pen of bulls. They are not monsters. The mature bulls probably weigh 1600-1900 pounds. They have a number of descendants of Apache 3A that were in their field. They were all nearly identical in type. They sell semen but enforce a strict genetic defect policy (which I believe is essentially a death sentence for affected calves). I attached a picture of an 8 year old Apache bull below (taken on my phone from the cab of a pick up truck).
Hope this helps.
GM
Doc
Well-known member
Cut the BS said:
How can you say that they are the exact opposite. Have you taken the time to really study their cow to see how deep their breeding is or did you just take a quick look at a website with some herd bulls on it. They use a lot of their own bulls. Bringing in an outside hersire to use is not a crime . They sure have raised a lot of good cattle in Hardyville,KY. I mean they are definitely doing something right up there as being the cattle alone supports 2 families.
Just because someone doesn't breed a sire back to his dam then back to his half sister, like you do with your sheep doesn't mean they don't have a true breeding program.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
They obviously don't think enough of their homebred bulls to put them on their sires page. Durango looks like a hella bull. The terribly shallow chested SULL bull not so much.Doc said:
I like what Kaper is doing. His junior sire or now sire 4508 is a son of his late senior sire 108 that was homebred. That to me seems like a breeding program with a defined direction.
So we have Saskvalley Bonanza that's 3 gens bred top/bottom, the Apache bull looks primitive, kl prime time paymaster nearly qualifies, what other walking bulls are out there being used that meet the search??
OH Breeder
Well-known member
Chandler said:
Just a few that I found. All three below have semen available.
Go North
4145501 Alta Cedar Perfect Storm
C473839 Eionmor Highlander 26U
C471215 Eionmor Highlander 90P
vcsf
Well-known member
Chandler said:
Does Saskvalley Bonanza qualify? Seems to me that BS would say that he is out because his breeder went and sold him to someone else rather than keeping him to use themselves. Just asking, in my opinion he is a good bull. If Bonanza qualifies is there really much difference going to Saskvalley Pioneer another outstanding bull?
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