Shorthorn search

[Okotoks]

when I click the martindell link, 4 herd sires pop up.. and not a one was produced by these folks...  I'm thinking that exact opposite of what ryan was wanting...  

How can you say that they are the exact opposite. Have you taken the time to really study their cow to see how deep their breeding is or did you just take a quick look at a website with some herd bulls on it. They use a lot of their own bulls. Bringing in an outside hersire to use is not a crime . They sure have raised a lot of good cattle in Hardyville,KY. I mean they are definitely doing something right up there as being the cattle alone supports 2 families.
Just because someone doesn't breed a sire back to his dam then back to his half sister, like you do with your sheep doesn't mean they don't have a true breeding program.

They obviously don't think enough of their homebred bulls to put them on their sires page.  Durango looks like a hella bull. The terribly shallow chested SULL bull not so much.   

I like what Kaper is doing.  His junior sire or now sire 4508 is a son of his late senior sire 108 that was homebred.  That to me seems like a breeding program with a defined direction. 

So we have Saskvalley Bonanza that's 3 gens bred top/bottom, the Apache bull looks primitive, kl prime time paymaster nearly qualifies, what other walking bulls are out there being used that meet the search??

What about Waukaru, Lovings and KL in the USA and you could add Crooked Post and JT to the Canadian list.
I think you would need a pretty big herd to continuously use your own genetics. Here is an example of a linebed bull we raised and he is being used in the MBM herd. He was used on a few daughters of a Northern Legend 3N son. The Circle M Mark's Legend 9L bull is also sired by Diamond Captain Mark 27C.  I think most succesful breeding programs introduce new genetics one way or the other that they feel add strenghths and compliment the herd.

        CIRCLE M MARK'S LEGEND 9L X-[CAN]M468769- 
    NORTHERN LEGEND 3N X-[CAN]M470509-   
        ELITE BUTTERFLY 3G X-[CAN]F670283- 
  DIAMOND RISING LEGEND 1R X-[CAN]M471576-     
          DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C X-M463603- 
      DIAMOND NICOLA SUSAN 23N X-[CAN]F679178-   
        DIAMOND ELIZABETH SUSAN 5E -F666745- 
DIAMOND WAR ADMIRAL 10W       
        BODMIN H M ALBERTA MARK 71A X-GM462512- 
      DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C X-M463603-   
          GAFA CAPTAIN'S ROSEBUD DOLLY X-F650155- 
  DIAMOND NONA MAID 61N X-[CAN]F679681-     
        MILLVALE JUBILATION 1751 X-M454154-D 
    WINALOT MONA LISA X-F641125-   
        WINALOT MONA MAID X-F637850-

 

[aj]

I think it would be interesting to know the % of shorthorn registrations that are club calf people. I bet it would be significant. Probably form the doublestuff era. I do think think that someone like jit is more devoted to "the breed" then most club calf guys. The club calf guys probably pays the bills as far as registration numbers go......in the USA anyway. The club calf guys have a completely different approach to breeding cattle to say Lovings long term model. I wonder what the structure of the breed would have been without Doublestuff? The mindset. Of even the club calf deal in general? It always kinda bugged me shorthorn guys dabbled in club calf stuff but maybe its club calf guys dabbling in shorthorns. If you banned th positive cattle from the breed how would the breed move? I assume that if the angus breed had th they would ban it from registrations.I bet there are th carrying registered angus right now. Fun to ponder.

 

[kfacres]

when I click the martindell link, 4 herd sires pop up.. and not a one was produced by these folks...  I'm thinking that exact opposite of what ryan was wanting...  

How can you say that they are the exact opposite. Have you taken the time to really study their cow to see how deep their breeding is or did you just take a quick look at a website with some herd bulls on it. They use a lot of their own bulls. Bringing in an outside hersire to use is not a crime . They sure have raised a lot of good cattle in Hardyville,KY. I mean they are definitely doing something right up there as being the cattle alone supports 2 families.
Just because someone doesn't breed a sire back to his dam then back to his half sister, like you do with your sheep doesn't mean they don't have a true breeding program.

They obviously don't think enough of their homebred bulls to put them on their sires page.  Durango looks like a hella bull. The terribly shallow chested SULL bull not so much.  

I like what Kaper is doing.  His junior sire or now sire 4508 is a son of his late senior sire 108 that was homebred.  That to me seems like a breeding program with a defined direction.  

So we have Saskvalley Bonanza that's 3 gens bred top/bottom, the Apache bull looks primitive, kl prime time paymaster nearly qualifies, what other walking bulls are out there being used that meet the search??

What about Waukaru, Lovings and KL in the USA and you could add Crooked Post and JT to the Canadian list.
I think you would need a pretty big herd to continuously use your own genetics. Here is an example of a linebed bull we raised and he is being used in the MBM herd. He was used on a few daughters of a Northern Legend 3N son. The Circle M Mark's Legend 9L bull is also sired by Diamond Captain Mark 27C.  I think most succesful breeding programs introduce new genetics one way or the other that they feel add strenghths and compliment the herd.

       CIRCLE M MARK'S LEGEND 9L X-[CAN]M468769-  
    NORTHERN LEGEND 3N X-[CAN]M470509-    
        ELITE BUTTERFLY 3G X-[CAN]F670283-  
  DIAMOND RISING LEGEND 1R X-[CAN]M471576-      
         DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C X-M463603-  
     DIAMOND NICOLA SUSAN 23N X-[CAN]F679178-    
        DIAMOND ELIZABETH SUSAN 5E -F666745-  
DIAMOND WAR ADMIRAL 10W        
        BODMIN H M ALBERTA MARK 71A X-GM462512-  
     DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C X-M463603-    
         GAFA CAPTAIN'S ROSEBUD DOLLY X-F650155-  
  DIAMOND NONA MAID 61N X-[CAN]F679681-      
        MILLVALE JUBILATION 1751 X-M454154-D  
    WINALOT MONA LISA X-F641125-    
       WINALOT MONA MAID X-F637850-

6/8 of the 4th generation, is purchased...

I think you would need a pretty big herd to continuously use your own genetics. ----------------isn't that what I have been preaching through this entire thread?

 

[kfacres]

Here's a couple of pedigrees for you to check out Oko- they were in the back of the book last night as I flipped through. I figured I'd pull out 2 rams and 2 ewes to scan and post mainly just randomly selected-

If we consider the prefixes as being esentially the same- then the generations get deeper, since I purchased the Harris flock- and it's essentially the only thing in our genetics- if not then consider those produced by me- since in beginning in 2000.

Really study the pedigrees, and the same animals listed on top and bottom.  I also left some sticky notes on it, to help expand it some to the next generation of which you cannot see.

To sum it up, on things that lie in the next generation:
1000- 9x Turbo; 1103- 9x Turbo; 1141- 13x Turbo; 1201F- 10x Turbo
1141 was bred to 1103 this year- as well as all the females from his same ewe line- that will be cool results; they mated up perfectly physically and will yield 22 shots of Turbo within 6, 7 or 8 generations- I think that is 28.16% Turbo blood if it all lies in the 8th generation (which it does not).

With regards to the two hamp lambs- I purchased my first Hampshires in 2003, ram (Gaston) lamb and a ewe (Adams) lamb.  Since then, I've mated full siblings back together, and twins to each other as well.  I added 3 good ewes from my former boss in JuCo- and another related ewe (b/c I thought I needed some outcross), still have not added that 2nd stud ram.  The 1100 ram lamb, I think I figured up had 37.5% "Scope" blood in him.  Scope was a 2000 model, and could very well be a sire that's sired more state and national champions and Louisville Supremes than any other sire in purebred livestock showing.  1100's mother just lambed last weekend with another ram lamb, sired by 1100; he could be special- especially considering she's 10 years old. 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Perhaps I am confused but if the only true cattle producers don't buy genetics that they feel will work in their program and everyone is to strive for this when breeding their own cattle wouldn't the purebred bull market plummet? I think this trend breeding (closed herd, just show genetics, calving ease etc) really misses on the big picture.  Some of the big picture thoughts that should be used are the cattle you want to produce structurally sound?  physically sound (watching some videos this is a concern)? Physically suitable for your environment? Are they able to calve? If not is it Birth-weight or is it the dams structure? Is the calf produced in need of assistance?

 

[kfacres]

Perhaps I am confused but if the only true cattle producers don't buy genetics that they feel will work in their program and everyone is to strive for this when breeding their own cattle wouldn't the purebred bull market plummet? I think this trend breeding (closed herd, just show genetics, calving ease etc) really misses on the big picture.  Some of the big picture thoughts that should be used are the cattle you want to produce structurally sound?  physically sound (watching some videos this is a concern)? Physically suitable for your environment? Are they able to calve? If not is it Birth-weight or is it the dams structure? Is the calf produced in need of assistance?

speaking from personal experience... this is why some people don't buy- what they have works for them, and feel that anything purchased would take them backward- for the reasons you just mentioned... 

 

[jaimiediamond]

Perhaps I am confused but if the only true cattle producers don't buy genetics that they feel will work in their program and everyone is to strive for this when breeding their own cattle wouldn't the purebred bull market plummet? I think this trend breeding (closed herd, just show genetics, calving ease etc) really misses on the big picture.  Some of the big picture thoughts that should be used are the cattle you want to produce structurally sound?  physically sound (watching some videos this is a concern)? Physically suitable for your environment? Are they able to calve? If not is it Birth-weight or is it the dams structure? Is the calf produced in need of assistance?

speaking from personal experience... this is why some people don't buy- what they have works for them, and feel that anything purchased would take them backward- for the reasons you just mentioned... 

Alas I think my point was lost on you. 

 

[RyanChandler]

What about this guy? Anyone? Do you know these cattle AJ?

4082791 AR CHEROKEE 134B
x4080728  AR APACHE 3A

I've been a fan of "Albaugh's Frosty Acres" for a long time.  I had a chance to visit Norris and Ron at Albaugh Ranch in Fallon last June.  They are wonderful people.  The AR and FA prefixes are genetically the same.  J.E. Albaugh started Frosty Acres back in the 40's.  His sons went on to continue the breeding.  More recently, the brothers split the herd, and now the Frosty Acres cattle w/ the AR prefix are located at Albaugh Ranch  located in Fallon, Nevada.  They've maintained a semi closed herd since 46 and the cattle all trace back to the original 1820 herd book.  They've used Haumont bulls (the last two bought sight unseen from Mary Bell Cooksley) throughout the years. Norris suggested I visit Haumont Farms.  When I spoke to Mary Bell she said that gets a call from the Albaughs every 25 years or so for an outcross bull.  The Albaugh Shorthorns can be dual registered in ASA and the AMSA Native program.

Their cattle are not pampered, are grass fed, well documented, and emphasis economical production of beef under normal ranching conditions.  They are not show cattle.  They do not have the birth weight problems that exist in the "outside" Shorthorn world.  Ron told me their calves average in the 70 pound range.  They utlize linnear measurements in their selection.  I was extremely impressed with their pen of bulls.  They are not monsters.  The mature bulls probably weigh 1600-1900 pounds.  They have a number of descendants of Apache 3A that were in their field.  They were all nearly identical in type.  They sell semen but enforce a strict genetic defect policy (which I believe is essentially a death sentence for affected calves).  I attached a picture of an 8 year old Apache bull below (taken on my phone from the cab of a pick up truck).

Hope this helps.

GM

Is this the same Apache bull on their sire page?   I'm thinking no?  

 

[oakview]

As for the original comment about the lack of 'home breeding' in many sale catalogs...I don't think it really makes a difference in the success of a sale or perhaps even a breeding program, as long as there is a purpose in mind.  Last night I looked back at our mature female sale catalog from 2003.  There were 50 head, 48 cows and the 2 herd bulls, all separate lots with no calves to be split.  45 were home raised cows and 1 bull was home raised.  Of these home raised cattle, 43 were at least 3 generations deep of home raised cattle on the female side.  Over half of the cows in the sale were sired by home raised bulls, the result of AIing some of my best cows, all at least 3 deep in home raised breeding, to non-owned bulls of the kind I liked.  The 4 non-home raised cattle in the sale included 1 herd bull and 3 cows, 2 of which were actually received from friends of mine in trade for bull calves.  We kept a handful of heifer calves and of course bought quite a few females over the next several years to rebuild.  The sale exceeded my wildest dreams.  9 years ago, the whole sale averaged about 2,400 per head, again, no pairs, only one bred cow per lot.  Gene McDonald, in Shorthorn Country the next month, wrote in his column that it was a personal highlight and the best sale he had attended.  I really appreciated what he wrote.  Over the years, I have had many people tell me how impressed they were with a sale like that with almost 100%  home raised, similarly bred cattle.  Others have told me how that sale probably did a lot for the Shorthorn breed.  It showed that a plain old idiot like me, with limited resources and a practical, home farm operation could have some success selling Shorthorns.  We rebuilt to about 60 cows, but things unfortunately happen that we can't foresee and we've cut back to about 30.  I still do, however, like my cow families and have kept a representative of each.  On the other hand, my friend Dale Studer, has always had a very high percentage of cattle in his sale that are of different prefixes.  To say that he has been successful would be an understatement.  I admire the fact that Dale can put together cattle from diverse backgrounds, mate them properly, and present them in a profitable manner.  The point is, you can be successful raising your own or putting together the ingredients from other sources in the right way.

 

[GM]

What about this guy? Anyone? Do you know these cattle AJ?

4082791 AR CHEROKEE 134B
x4080728  AR APACHE 3A

I've been a fan of "Albaugh's Frosty Acres" for a long time.  I had a chance to visit Norris and Ron at Albaugh Ranch in Fallon last June.  They are wonderful people.  The AR and FA prefixes are genetically the same.  J.E. Albaugh started Frosty Acres back in the 40's.  His sons went on to continue the breeding.  More recently, the brothers split the herd, and now the Frosty Acres cattle w/ the AR prefix are located at
Albaugh Ranch  located in Fallon, Nevada.  They've maintained a semi closed herd since 46 and the cattle all trace back to the original 1820 herd book.  They've used Haumont bulls (the last two bought sight unseen from Mary Bell Cooksley) throughout the years. Norris suggested I visit Haumont Farms.  When I spoke to Mary Bell she said that gets a call from the Albaughs every 25 years or so for an outcross bull.  The Albaugh Shorthorns can be dual registered in ASA and the AMSA Native program.

Their cattle are not pampered, are grass fed, well documented, and emphasis economical production of beef under normal ranching
conditions.  They are not show cattle.  They do not have the birth weight problems that exist in the "outside" Shorthorn world.  Ron told me their calves average in the 70 pound range.  They utlize linnear measurements in their selection.  I was extremely impressed with their pen of bulls.  They are not monsters.  The mature bulls probably weigh 1600-1900 pounds.  They have a number of descendants of Apache 3A that were in their field.  They were all nearly identical in type.  They sell semen but enforce a strict genetic defect policy (which I believe is essentially a death sentence for affected calves).  I attached a picture of an 8 year old Apache bull below (taken on my phone from the cab of a pick up truck).

Hope this helps.

GM

Is this the same Apache bull on their sire page?   I'm thinking no?  

I'm 99% sure it's a son.  There were a number of Apache bulls of varying ages in the field.  I don't think the pics on the website do the bulls justice (not that the program is trying to win any beauty contests).  I've seen another picture of the Cherokee bull taken during a different time of year and he looked really good (i haven't seen him in person).

 

[aj]

I guess Beckton's herd would be kinda like this deal. They STARTED the Red Angus breed. They kinda gathered up the Red Angus cattle that the black angus people discarded. It would be interesting to follow that breeding program the last 60 years (in detail).

 

[JPS]

Chandler probably the most intensely linebred shorthorn herd I have found is Haumont's in Nebraska.  I agree with many of the postings, that the important aspect is to find a bull that fits your desired phenotype and market.  Based on your first post, you are looking for commercial type breeding.  I have found a few breeders that raise what I consider as commercial types. I have been to the herds at  A&T, Loving, Muridale, Saskvalley, Diamond and have seen quite a few Sneed cattle.

There are a number of other breeders that serve more than one market, and you can find good commercial types in their herds also.  Horseshoe Creek has some good lines, as well as Crawfdown, Jungels, etc.  Dale Studer is the closest to what I would consider a master breeder.  He knows what bulls will work on what cows. 

The best thing you can do is study pedigrees.  You need to do a 5-6 generation trace.  You will start seeing names repeated over and over and can track them down to potential herd sires. I have a lot of Canadian influence in my shorthorns, just because a number of the breeders stayed a little more functional in their body type and fleshing ability.  Coyote and I just had a talk about how hard it is to find the "next" bull.  And you don't know the real answer, until daughters get into production.  I've got a yearling Marquis grandson in the Nebraska Cattlemens Sale.  He is really geared more towards commercial production.

 

[sue]

My hero's was the Hubs ranch. I don't think he gave a damn about what the outside world thought. Same with Steve even today. They have a type they breed for. They stick with it. They hammer a hammer on it fors.....for decades. If the common wisdom swings around to your linr of cattle you are setting on a jackpot. Hubs hit theirs in the the what 70's. Welch and Stout and Sears found their cattle and they were hot. I do admire people who linebreed. Olhde. The line one program in the Herfords.....weren't they developed on the a range research ranch in the Dakotas. They were bred mainly for growth. They were bad on feet and legs but they could grow. Then when the herfords were trying to fight their way out of the belt buckle cattle they used the heck out of the line ones. I was told that breeds of cattle exist for two reasons. first they are pure so they can be used as a tool to create heterosis. Second they are developed to fill a niche or a purpose for a cross breeding system. A hog analogy would be that the Durocs were developed for meat and the Landrace is developed with maternal traits in mind. I don't think the Angus can be all things for everything. I don't think the Charolais are all things for all purposes. Now all the cattle are trying to look like Angus......even the "Exotics". It is a fascinating subject.

you're right . I have had to tweek the frame, but still, the body and attraction has and will not be lost in that deal....Lots of horns, huge ww and just solid deal out there. I bet they sell one or two pb bulls now. ... several unpapered raxsh females  mulitple... it's still about 100 pb cows... but many of the papers on calves never surface??  Definatley a education - great  down to earth cattle people. Many that tour feel the bottom end is better then most "donor pens of the top shorthorn show  operations". makes me smile.

 

[r.n.reed]

The Hub ranch is a great example of a herd that has developed a distinct strain and can offer specifics to another herd or crossbreeding program in a reliable way.It is also I believe a great testimony to the adaptability of the Shorthorn breed and I chuckle when I think of AJ'S comment that they are his idols.The two most influential bulls in the founding of that herd were  not your typical western Kansas range bulls.One was  a dairy bull from Vermont and the other a bull from Illinois whose breeder had a reputation of keeping his cattle real close to the corn crib.
One of my favorite moments in this business was when Virgil Wegener the founder of Hub's ranch paid me a visit.Without knowing it he picked the dam of my herd bull at the time as the best cow in my herd.

 

[aj]

We had 200 calves natural from hh Robins impact and we had a joint production sale with Virgil and Steve  around 1980 with Green Ridge and tomson.

 

[aj]

The HUB's cattle were fertile, a little harder keeping, and good milking. The bulls were fertile athletic and had high libido. The one year we turned 60 cows out with Impact.

 

[knabe]

Im looking for cattle breeders not brand marketers! Help me out-

Say the 8 individuals all came from different ranches but were lined up exactly like if they came from the same ranch, what are you expecting to obtain?    Are you going to wait 3 generations before you sell anything and hold yourself to the same criteria you are so disgusted about in others?  If you don't don't why don't you consider yourself a marketer and aren't breeders with multiple generations in a pedigree marketers as well catering to their own clientele?  Really your premise is a little unfair.