Something for everyone - "showers" and "growers"

Help Support Steer Planet:

JoeBnTN

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
258
As many of you know several years ago I coached a successful college judging team and a meat animal elevation team.  For those who aren’t familiar with meat animal evaluation, it’s the prediction, based on live evaluation, of an animal’s carcass and economic merit - or as I used to tell my teams – livestock judging was an evaluation of the “outside” of an animal, while meat animal evaluation looked at the “inside”.

Anyway I was cleaning out old files and found an exercise we used to do in class that I thought some of you might want to try.  The question is simple – define an ideal steer from the livestock judge’s point of view and define an ideal steer from the meat animal evaluator’s point of view, then compare and contrast them.  Keep in mind a couple of things – most of the steers in judging contests are “show” steers and meat animal evaluators are always comparing to an industry optimum – not necessarily a maximum.

To give you an idea of what I’m talking about – when I first gave this lecture 25 years ago in 1983 (yes Malinda I really am that old but thanks for the compliment), it included things like this (this list isn’t inclusive but should give you an idea):

Ideal Judging Steer:

53-55 inches tall
1150-1300 lbs.
Wide based
Clean in lower 1/3 of the body, especially in the flank and brisket
Firm handling

Ideal Evaluation Steer

1200-1350 lbs.
YG 2
.35 inches fat thickness
Low Choice carcass
12.5-14.0 REA
Likely a British – Continental cross

What about today?  Anyone want to play?
 

itk

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
556
Location
KS
Today you would definitely have to add hair and bone to the list.
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
the thing i was/am always confused about, is why the extra concern over the brisket.  if the animal fattens from the front back, top down, and the brisket is clean but the twist is empty, what i always looked for was the violators of fat deposition.  to me, if they also had low backfat, and graded middle to upper choice, i want that cow that produced the steer.  to me, this is genetics that lays down it's stores for a longer duration rather than a quick release from the front and top.  on the other hand, you can get into fat in the udder.
 

OH Breeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
5,954
Location
Ada, Ohio
We had a great looking 52 1350 steer this year in the last class or the tallest calves. Our county shows by hip height. The judge said ...too big. Was going to try and justify a 48" steer that weighed 1187 but didn't go over well. So he picked a 50" 1200# champion and a 51.5 1350 reserve. Go figure.

For a moment he had us all believing that the 48"er would be the champion. I was shocked. Our born and raised show the young lady mentioned prior was the Champion.
 

aj

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,420
Location
western kansas
It is more efficient to grow muscle than fat but you need a little cover to grade.
 

Malinda

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
160
Hey JoeBnTen,

Take a compliment any time you can get it, they are hard to come by!

In 1983 I was 'passing gas' as my REAL job. I was not showing cattle but I had approx. 30 purebred Charolais cows and approx 70 Charolais pb and Angus cross cattle in the feedlot. Raised my own corn and oats and sold every one of those fat cattle privately for $.05/pound more than market price.

Actually, I didn't show any cattle between 1968 (4-H) and 1995 (I think 1995 is pretty accurate).

The rule of thumb with the cows was that a cow had to maintain herself on half a bale (square bales back in those days) of hay a day in the winter and pasture in the summer. Some salt and a trace mineral block, good vaccination program, etc.

The rule of thumb back in the 60's was the calves HAD to be finished in 15 months or less. I now use 13 1/2 months as my HAVE TO age.

My Dad was a man of many 4 letter words but 'cull' was one of his favorites. To this day I use my birth weights, weaning weights, yearly weights to make my decisions on breeding and feeding and culling. Also use those figures to determine which calves I put a halter on.

Sure, those with that show look quicken your heart but an increased heart rate ONCE in a while does not get me to the bank. Everyone be honest now......what percentage of your cattle go to the show and how many go to the yards or feedlot?

With that all said, I couldn't begin to tell you anything about frame scores. Have never done one. I just use my eyeballs and my records to tell me if I'm on the way to the bank to make a deposit or get a loan. Now you all know that I am an old dog that has learned few tricks.

Several of you have seen some show calves out of my DZ cow. What you do not see is the DZ/Tonic bull here in my barn that turned a year old on Sept 10 and weighed 1380# and has never been on more than what I call a 'short' half of a five gallon bucket of grain twice a day.

I have rambled on enough....all I really wanted to say is I can't add a thing to JoeBnTen's post. I have never been on a judging team and am not worth a darn in giving reasons. All I know is what works for me and I'm sticking to it! But, I did enjoy Joe's comparison; gives food for thought.

Go ahead and jump on me for my old fashioned, uninformed methods and my ego.The Well's have never been accused of being humble!

Everyone have a nice day.

Malinda
 

TJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
2,036
OH Breeder said:
We had a great looking 52 1350 steer this year in the last class or the tallest calves. Our county shows by hip height. The judge said ...too big. Was going to try and justify a 48" steer that weighed 1187 but didn't go over well. So he picked a 50" 1200# champion and a 51.5 1350 reserve. Go figure.

For a moment he had us all believing that the 48"er would be the champion. I was shocked. Our born and raised show the young lady mentioned prior was the Champion.

Interesting.  My goal in a few years is to produce 48-50 inch tall steers that will finish around 1,250-1,300 lbs.  I think tanks like that will be hard to beat.  And they should be ideal to eat too.  Time will tell.     
 

JoeBnTN

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
258
Malinda said:
Hey JoeBnTen,

Take a compliment any time you can get it, they are hard to come by!

In 1983 I was 'passing gas' as my REAL job. I was not showing cattle but I had approx. 30 purebred Charolais cows and approx 70 Charolais pb and Angus cross cattle in the feedlot. Raised my own corn and oats and sold every one of those fat cattle privately for $.05/pound more than market price.

Actually, I didn't show any cattle between 1968 (4-H) and 1995 (I think 1995 is pretty accurate).

The rule of thumb with the cows was that a cow had to maintain herself on half a bale (square bales back in those days) of hay a day in the winter and pasture in the summer. Some salt and a trace mineral block, good vaccination program, etc.

The rule of thumb back in the 60's was the calves HAD to be finished in 15 months or less. I now use 13 1/2 months as my HAVE TO age.

My Dad was a man of many 4 letter words but 'cull' was one of his favorites. To this day I use my birth weights, weaning weights, yearly weights to make my decisions on breeding and feeding and culling. Also use those figures to determine which calves I put a halter on.

Sure, those with that show look quicken your heart but an increased heart rate ONCE in a while does not get me to the bank. Everyone be honest now......what percentage of your cattle go to the show and how many go to the yards or feedlot?

With that all said, I couldn't begin to tell you anything about frame scores. Have never done one. I just use my eyeballs and my records to tell me if I'm on the way to the bank to make a deposit or get a loan. Now you all know that I am an old dog that has learned few tricks.

Several of you have seen some show calves out of my DZ cow. What you do not see is the DZ/Tonic bull here in my barn that turned a year old on Sept 10 and weighed 1380# and has never been on more than what I call a 'short' half of a five gallon bucket of grain twice a day.

I have rambled on enough....all I really wanted to say is I can't add a thing to JoeBnTen's post. I have never been on a judging team and am not worth a darn in giving reasons. All I know is what works for me and I'm sticking to it! But, I did enjoy Joe's comparison; gives food for thought.

Go ahead and jump on me for my old fashioned, uninformed methods and my ego.The Well's have never been accused of being humble!

Everyone have a nice day.

Malinda

Malinda,

Sounds to me like you and your dad were pretty smart cattle breeders!!
 

Dusty

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,097
Perfect Show steer-
1260-1340 lbs
wide made from top to bottom-wide top square top,
                                            -wide blades,
                                            -wide middled,
                                            -wide standing, wide walking

smooth made-he's not piecey, not tight in the heart, not high flanked etc... has that easy feeding look

attractive-no waste, smooth pretty neck that ties into his body well, attractive head, no extra brisket, no sheath, tailhead sits in nicely
             -up headed and cocky, walks around like he knows he's the best
             -shows well eg. sets up easy and holds the "pose", doesn't fidget and keeps his ears up and ahead
             -photogenic in that he just looks good from all angles(this one is tough, most good steers have at least one angle that they dont look quite as good in my mind)
             -looks fresh in his appearance, doesn't look old and course  

sound-knows where he wants to put his feet down at and the back foot goes down where the front one left the ground
         -all feet point straight ahead!
         -athletic in that he doesn't struggle and just kinda floats when he moves, looks like he could walk 100 miles and not be tired

handles well-full of meat and is firm, but fat and he has that right amount of cover over his ribs, lower forerib, and flank
                 -carries his muscle down low in that his twsit isn't too high



Perfect feedlot steer

           i won't get into carcass specs as grids and premiums are dynamic and the vast majority of feedlot cattle are bought on a fairbanks and sold on a fairbanks and a lot of cattle feeders could really care less what he looks like under the hide.  Money is made by putting weight on cattle and the faster they gain the more money they make..

That being said the perfect feedlot steer would walk off the truck weighing 500 lbs and balling and walk on the truck 7 months later weighing 1400 and be fat!!! He would be healthy when he got there and stay that way without any drugs.  There's a lot of different ways he can do that, frankly I don't care how he does it as long as he gets it done.

Ohh and by the way the perfect feedlot steer would be SOLID BLACK.


 

SWMO

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Carthage MO
"Ohh and by the way the perfect feedlot steer would be SOLID BLACK."

Dusty, As long as a feedlot steers gains and grades and does this effeciently what difference does the color make?  Once the hide is off I have always been told that the meat is all red. ;D

  In order to have an ideal feedlot steer or heifer you have to have the ideal cow in the pasture.  My ideal cow is effecient in the pasture, keeps her weight and rebreeds and weans a big calf every year.  Those criteria  in Southern Missouri involves a female that can handle heat, cold, and fescue.  I personally like the lighter colored females in our situation.  And for a commercial cow a touch of ear has always been a plus for us.
 

Dusty

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,097
SWMO said:
"Ohh and by the way the perfect feedlot steer would be SOLID BLACK."

Dusty, As long as a feedlot steers gains and grades and does this effeciently what difference does the color make?  Once the hide is off I have always been told that the meat is all red. ;D

  In order to have an ideal feedlot steer or heifer you have to have the ideal cow in the pasture.  My ideal cow is effecient in the pasture, keeps her weight and rebreeds and weans a big calf every year.  Those criteria  in Southern Missouri involves a female that can handle heat, cold, and fescue.   I personally like the lighter colored females in our situation.  And for a commercial cow a touch of ear has always been a plus for us.

Fat cattle buyers generally prefer black hided ones as opposed to other colors.  I know to the packer its what underneath that counts but in the sale barn the blacks will generally bring a little more everything else being equal.
 

SWMO

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Carthage MO
We don't look at price per pound nearly as hard as we look at $$$ per head.  So a group of colored calves that grow out exceedingly well and produce more total $$$ per head suits us just fine. 

 

bcosu

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
853
Location
Ohio
we get a premium for black calves.

dusty, that photogenic description of a show steer is key i think. just like you said there seems to almost always be a bad angle. i love to look at that 3/4 angle off the back hip looking forward at their shoulder. i think that really defines the calf. i think it can make or break a calf.
 

aj

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,420
Location
western kansas
I about an hour from Kit Pharo(he lives north of cheyenne colo). Most people are aware of his philosiphies. They have a all forage bull test feedout.I tried this on my yearling bulls last fall and winter. No grain,free choice cane feed(round bales) and crystallxz  tubs. I had 5 bulls fed like this. 3 bulls did ok and 2 really went to heck. I turned the one durham red bull out on 9 cows and he covered them. The other Durham Red bull ran with 21 heifers around May. He bred em all and I twice had to get him out of the neighbors pasture cause he was ready for more. He looked pretty tough coming off grass. We pulled the two calves put them on minimum grain and showed them at the Colorado State fair 60 days latter. They really perked up but they were way to green to compete. I guess my point is I hate the WDA deal in the showring. All it does is cause people to lie about BWt's. Then you have to creep the calves on whole corn or whatever to play the game. The WDA has become all artificial performance. It doesn't allow cattle to be tested by natural selections. I hate it I hate it I hate it. Put the damn bulls on a forage test or a bull test somewhere then talk about performance. To me the WDA is a performance joke anymore. All enviroments are different but I hate the WDA deal. It has just increased our cow size. I know the show ring is the show ring and the natural world is the natural world but I move we start a anti WDA cololition and raise some heck! Are there any more rednecks like me out there! ;D
 

JoeBnTN

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
258
To bring this thing back full circle - and some have kind of hinted at it - over the past 25 years we have dramatically changed the phenotype of the cattle we think are "ideal" - we've brought the frame down a fair amount, gone from "lean and clean" to "soft and loose", we've taken breeds of cattle that took generations to get big - like Chi's and Simmy's and asked them to "moderate," etc...  So the package we put our cattle in is a long way from where we were in 1983, BUT...

what's inside the package - the carcass and what's considered ideal - hasn't really changed. How many of us wouldn't like to have 1300 lb, YG2, Choice cattle to feed out and make money from?  It seems to me that we spend an awful lot of time, money and effort into redesigning the outside but don't pay much attention to what's on the inside. 

Since we've spent 25 years and really haven't changed the contents, I wonder what a steer would look like that was really different from the ideal - and would any of us like him? 
 

Dusty

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,097
JoeBnTN said:
To bring this thing back full circle - and some have kind of hinted at it - over the past 25 years we have dramatically changed the phenotype of the cattle we think are "ideal" - we've brought the frame down a fair amount, gone from "lean and clean" to "soft and loose", we've taken breeds of cattle that took generations to get big - like Chi's and Simmy's and asked them to "moderate," etc...  So the package we put our cattle in is a long way from where we were in 1983, BUT...

what's inside the package - the carcass and what's considered ideal - hasn't really changed. How many of us wouldn't like to have 1300 lb, YG2, Choice cattle to feed out and make money from?  It seems to me that we spend an awful lot of time, money and effort into redesigning the outside but don't pay much attention to what's on the inside. 

Since we've spent 25 years and really haven't changed the contents, I wonder what a steer would look like that was really different from the ideal - and would any of us like him? 

What's sad in my mind is that basically now all the breeds look alike.  A Simmy is supposed to look lke a simmy, not look like an angus and vice versa.  I think when it comes to purebreds we need to be able to appreciate them for what they are in regards to what their breed is supposed to be.  It's when we have these differences between the breeds is when we can take adavantage of heterosis.  If all the breeds are the same phenotypically we lose some of that I think.  To me an ideal cowherd would be one that consisted of F1 SimAngus females that were about 13 to 1400 pounds.  A guy could then use either a bigger framed more extreme exotic bull or a moderate Angus bull on those cows.  The calves would then essentially be 3/4 Exotic or 3/4 moderate depending on what the market wanted at the time.  But, we are breeding those differences out of the breeds so essentially there is just as much variation within a breed as there is between breeds.  To me this is not a good thing.  Every breed has to have it's niche if you will.  It would be nice to go to Denver and see white Chi's, red and white maines, orange simmi's, and a shorthorn breed that was actually bred to be a real animal, not furry showring eye candy.  Don't get me wrong I think the club calf thing has a place, but we shouldn't be breeding our purebreds to look like them.

On a side note I had a pretty funny experience a couple weeks ago.  I was wandering around a pasture at a sale labor day weekend looking at pretty good set and was talking with guy about club calves.  I didn't know the guy beforehand we had just started talking and he was telling me that his kids are on their second year showing calves and they wanted to go out and find a good one.  Anyways he was telling me that he feeds a lot of cattle and to quote him exactly how he put it:  "ya know I feed a lot of cattle and these cattle don't look anything like the calves I've got in the feedyard.  If i bought a load of calves and they came off the truck looking llike these I would tell the guys to hold the gate that I had to make a phone a call."  All I could do was give a little chuckle and tell him that club calves and feedlot calves have about as much in common as pigs and chickens.  I told him that show calves generally need to be babied along and you can't just kick them out in a pen and feed them a commercial ration and expect them to be good when they're done.  I think it was a bit of an eye opener for him.
 

Shorthorn_Junkie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
182
Location
Tennessee
Dusty said:

What's sad in my mind is that basically now all the breeds look alike.  A Simmy is supposed to look lke a simmy, not look like an angus and vice versa.  I think when it comes to purebreds we need to be able to appreciate them for what they are in regards to what their breed is supposed to be.  It's when we have these differences between the breeds is when we can take adavantage of heterosis.  If all the breeds are the same phenotypically we lose some of that I think. 

Hi Dusty,

I hear ya.

There's some folks who are still breeding those types of animals.  Plus you've probably noticed in discussions here on SP that a lot of Shorthorn Breeders are going back and using a lot of the older shorthorn genetics on newer shorthorn genetics in order to take advantage of heterosis.

I have to admit for me personally, it would be kind of fun to produce a big framed chi animal again as a hobby animal, however I can't afford too many hobby animals right now.....lol!
 
Top