SS Joe Rider

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Ruebush Shorthorns

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I bought SS Joe Rider from Duis Farms before Christmas and brought him over to Virginia.  Shorthorns are not very popular out our way, but we are hoping they will catch on.  Does anyone have past experience with him, or have had calves out of him that they have bought.  He will be my herd and clean up bull.  Any info on calves and good matings would be appreciated.  Thanks
 

DL

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Ruebush Shorthorns said:
I bought SS Joe Rider from Duis Farms before Christmas and brought him over to Virginia.  Shorthorns are not very popular out our way, but we are hoping they will catch on.  Does anyone have past experience with him, or have had calves out of him that they have bought.  He will be my herd and clean up bull.  Any info on calves and good matings would be appreciated.  Thanks

I am not where the endless records are but his sire Eskimo Joe is a PHA carrier - has he been tested for PHA?
 

Doc

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Yes, he is a PHA carrier. Cory offered a refund on any semen anyone had towards his new bull that he raised. I've seen some pretty nice calves by Joe Rider, although you have to be careful because he can get them too straight on both ends. He is a calving sire , though.
 

itk

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First off congratulations on buying a great bull we almost bought a Rider son from Walker's a few years ago. Joe should be calving ease and has sired some very nice calves out of a variety of cows. I'm sure Bob told you about his PHA status, so be careful what you breed him to. You need to be aware of the long term effects of the genetic defect not only on your cow herd but also your customers.
 

Ruebush Shorthorns

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Yeah I know he is a carrier but no one has recorded a problem with a calf at least from what the Duis guys had heard.  The benefits of having a good bull outway a couple carrier calves and if they are good bull calves I will definitly have them checked and castrated if they are carriers.  I am hoping to get a couple good bull calves to choose from for a replacement for him.  I have him in as a clean up right now to some December AI's so first calves will be next fall.
 

Jill

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Plug your ears (so to speak), you obviously haven't been around long enough not to know not to make a comment like that on here.
 

itk

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Don't get me wrong I'm not against using carrier genetics but just because there were no defective calves reported doesn't mean there might not be a problem. Every PHA calf that is born is a potential problem that needs to be handled with care. I'm sure he was unknowingly mated to a PHA cow at some point and due to the grace of God a absolute train wreck was avoided because the right genes didn't match up. Also, just because a defective calf wasn't reported doesn't mean it didn't happen. The defect can be passed on for generations and could possibly jump up and become a problem years down the road if not monitored carefully. Let me start the fallout Jill. Hold on this just turned into a five page topic.

Doc got a new avatar for you
 

knabe

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herefords who had dwarfs called carrier cows "ladies in waiting"

that said, there is a lot of diversity in the PHA gene and perhaps one of the alleles you have that doesn't have PHA will give you what you want.  to see a bull with both PHA and TH, look at cowtown.  seen him, definately has a look. 
 

DL

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Ruebush Shorthorns said:
Yeah I know he is a carrier but no one has recorded a problem with a calf at least from what the Duis guys had heard.  The benefits of having a good bull outway a couple carrier calves and if they are good bull calves I will definitly have them checked and castrated if they are carriers.  I am hoping to get a couple good bull calves to choose from for a replacement for him.  I have him in as a clean up right now to some December AI's so first calves will be next fall.

We now believe that a high percentage of PHA calves are lost early in gestation (early embryonic death) or aborted mid gestation. I don't know what your cow base is, but it might be worthwhile to have all your potential PHA carriers tested prior to breeding to a known carrier bull.

ITK although we certainly disagree about a lot including using carrier genetics, your point is well taken.

RS- I am sure you are aware, but I'll reiterate, breeding a carrier to either a carrier or a free cow will result statistically in 50% of you calf crop being carriers. Breeding a carrier to a carrier will result statistically in 25% PHA calves.

I just got a call from a breeder who used a carrier bull on his best cow prior to knowing that she was also a carrier  - he is going to abort her at 5 months - he wasn't willing to risk losing the cow to a PHA calf.

Also got a call from a guy who used a known carrier and couldn't believe he had a PHA calf because the dam was clean (well actually the dams sire was PHAF but the dams dam (or would that be the damn dam of the dam) was a big empty space - no information in a pedigree should make you suspicious.

I have a video of a PHA calf c section that resulted in death of the cow from peritonitis - when I get my act together I'll try to get it on U-tube - it is a tough view.

I guess my point would be that you do not want a PHA calf - since your name is Ruebush Shorthorns my guess would be that you aren't primarily an Angus breeder  ;) so I would consider testing you cows, it could help you prevent a really messy and expensive experience.

Jill - I am not sure what your point is.
 

itk

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DL I have a lot of respect for your POV and don't think it's wrong just different then mine. So lets agree to disagree it sounds so much more civil. I think Jill was just pointing out to a new, and maybe unaware member, that TH and PHA are hot topics on this board and can sometimes lead to very heated and polarizing debates. Personally I would never have a PHAC or THC herd sire for 2 reasons. One is that I know I have THC cows and wouldn't want to risk a potential problem. Two, being it would be to much of a hassle getting all of the calves tested instead of the one or two out of my known carrier cows. That being said Joe Rider is a reputable bull that has sired some very exciting calves and for a upstart program he could be just the ticket to jumpstart them to the big time.
 

DL

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itk said:
DL I have a lot of respect for your POV and don't think it's wrong just different then mine. So lets agree to disagree it sounds so much more civil. I think Jill was just pointing out to a new, and maybe unaware member, that TH and PHA are hot topics on this board and can sometimes lead to very heated and polarizing debates. Personally I would never have a PHAC or THC herd sire for 2 reasons. One is that I know I have THC cows and wouldn't want to risk a potential problem. Two, being it would be to much of a hassle getting all of the calves tested instead of the one or two out of my known carrier cows. That being said Joe Rider is a reputable bull that has sired some very exciting calves and for a upstart program he could be just the ticket to jumpstart them to the big time.

ITK - Agree to disagree - sounds good to me. I think you are right in that reputable breeder using carrier genetics will find that it is just a pain in the mule from a strategic and financial point of view. Do you really think TH and PHA are heated and polarizing topics??:eek: :eek:  Happy New Year!
 

shortdawg

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The Shrags have used him on a lot of cow families. I think he has worked good on some Augusta Pride females.
 

Doc

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itk said:
DL I have a lot of respect for your POV and don't think it's wrong just different then mine. So lets agree to disagree it sounds so much more civil. I think Jill was just pointing out to a new, and maybe unaware member, that TH and PHA are hot topics on this board and can sometimes lead to very heated and polarizing debates. Personally I would never have a PHAC or THC herd sire for 2 reasons. One is that I know I have THC cows and wouldn't want to risk a potential problem. Two, being it would be to much of a hassle getting all of the calves tested instead of the one or two out of my known carrier cows. That being said Joe Rider is a reputable bull that has sired some very exciting calves and for a upstart program he could be just the ticket to jumpstart them to the big time.
ITK, I agree on the + herdsire aspect. We had a THC full brother to Sabre that we started using before we knew he was THC. Once we found out, it caused us to not sell some cows that were bred to him & we had to test every calf that we weren't going to ship or feed out. Needless to say he only had 1 calf crop here before he went to the Golden Arches in the sky. We had a smoker of a steer by him out of a Black Impact cow too.
As far as JR goes I know some people still breeding calves to him because they had some good calves by him & he is calving ease.
 

Ruebush Shorthorns

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I understand everyones point of view.  Thruth be known, I only have 10 shorthorns and most are either out of clean sires like sonny ans sincity, or are older breeding stile cows.  The only cow I have that I would be worried about is a Kool and I synchronized her and locked her upo with a black simmetal a couple of days ago and the heat patch was red that next morning.  These carrier bulls make some of the best looking calves out their, and most club calf breeders use their geneticis hoping for steers anyway.  I think it could be a good argument that these defects may have some affect phenotypically, because it is hard to match some of the claves out of cariers with clean bulls.  Just my view on things.  Back on the Joe Rider deal.  We have such a hard time selling shorthorns for the prices everyone else is getting west of us,  If it isn't black hided out here, no one wants them.  Myself and some local breeders have a sale each fall and the prices seem to be getting lower.  I needed a way to get ahead and get some contacts out west to help with marketing calves.  That is why I risked the PHA carrier genetics for the name and intrest I would get from having him on site.  He will be 5 so I am only expecting maybe two or three calving seasons out of him.
 

CAB

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This is just MO, but if I were going to risk using a carrier bull, I would much rather use a THC than a PHAC. People are not going to put up with the PHA gene. I think that you get no look from PHACs, but definitely can from THCs. My thoughts are that the PHAC status may,(will) hurt you down the road if you are a breeder. That being said, I could use some help. Does anyone know for sure the PHA&TH status of Fear This & Stoney? I had a clean up bull a few years back, Fear This X Stoney cow that I have some cows out of & I am wondering if these cows are potential carriers or if I could be lucky enough to test out by pedigree. Any sure help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Cab
 

red

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Brent- Fear This is clean. Not sure about Stoney. What is he?

Plus if the AMMA pass the no carrier bull rule for registration, you'll not want to be using them this year. A lawyer told me that they should have 2 entire breeding seasons before it should be passed. Wonder if that's being taken into consideration? Is TH under the same rule?

Red
 

Jill

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The motions stated lethal genetic defects, it doesn't specify PHA or TH, I still don't like that rule for Free animals, but I guess they didn't ask me :-\
 

CAB

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Red, I don't know for sure if Stoney is mostly Ma. or Chi, but he was a clubbie bull that was used semi hard 10-15 years ago. You'll see him on the bottom side of some pedigrees. I have been breeding these cows to clean bulls so far, but I was hoping that the clean up bull that I ran for a few years would be clean by pedigree, and was hoping that someone would know about the status of Stoney. Thanks for the help on Fear This Red.
 

CAB

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Thank you Yuppiecowboy, Red, that just gave a bunch of cows and virgin heifers a clean genetic status. Many thanks to you both. Sincerely, Brent C.
 
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