Structural issues- comments welcomed

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Had my first real case of structural problems born last week. To me she is looking like a train wreck ready to happen. She's a Cowboy Cut out of a Habanero x Executive cow. Not really a clubby breeding but sure feel we're going to have problems. Notice the front knees, afraid when she gets any weight, she's going to buckle on me.
Would appreciate any comments or thoughts. Looks like both she & the cow will be heading for the feedlot.

Red

 

[AAOK]

Red,
I just got one of those same kind of cases back from the Processor.  I've had two cases, one about the same, and this last one a little worse.  The calves were completely unrelated, and neither cow has had another calf with a similar problem.  From the looks of the calf(other tan the front legs) I wouldn't get rid of the cow.  Those cripples sure do feed out well.  You just have to determine, after about 1000lbs, how many more days they have before you won't be able to get them loaded.

Dan

 

[NHR]

That makes my knees hurt. Ouch!!!

 

[red]

Thanks Dan, the trouble w/ the cow is that she is terrible to rebreed. She went 1 1/2 years between calves & for me that's unacceptable. She's also only had 1 decent calf & that was out of our herd bull. I think the farm might take her but the calf will probably go to the feedlot for as long as it can.
We talk about structural problems, how to prevent them & how some lines cause them. Thought this was a good way to bring it up in the open.

Red

ps- that Banana Cream is great. Had a calf that skinned up it's shoulder & applied it & it really healed her up quickly. Thanks for recommending it.

 

[AAOK]

We had out second sunny day yesterday in the past month.  I got WAY too much sun hanging around the pool all day.  The Banana Cream is fantastic for burns of any type.  They just about have the marketing ready to start promoting the product line.  I wish my roll with the company was more than just consulting.

ps- that Banana Cream is great. Had a calf that skinned up it's shoulder & applied it & it really healed her up quickly. Thanks for recommending it.
[/quote]

 

[CAB]

  Red, can't remember it we talked about my Cowboy Cut's or not, but this structure problem that you are seeing , is definatly coming from the bull. I had some issues exactly the same. You'll know in a short month whether the calf is going to make it or not. Your Friend Brent

 

[cowz]

We had a calf with knees like that last year and he came out moving fine, yet kept those large knee joints.  But to be brutally honest, there is not much to admire about how straight those back wheels are.  I am afraid being that straight in back will create more pressure on those front joints.  Does it have much flex at all back there?

 

[red]

nope- like I said she's a train wreck waiting to happen. She's really stiff already, like she has arthritis.

Red

 

[cowz]

Sorry, that is a real bummer.  We had a big framed cow that had a teeny, no gutted calf for three years in a row, with a different sire each time.  Sometimes the genetics just betray us.  Sometimes we have to close your eyes and throw them on the truck.  We used to call these "Baxter Black" cows.  He is a cowboy poet that wrote a cute poem about "giving that cow just one more year". 8)

 

[red]

Cowz- love Baxter Black, have heard him speak numerous times.

I guess, I feel this is the time to be brutaly honest. I have no problems w/ it or I won't have posted it. Too many times we know there's problems but we don't see them or just hear about them. Not knocking any one bull, I'm sure you can have problems from any bull/cow match. It just kills you to look at a nice calf & then see the legs & know it's going to get worse.

Red

 

[Jill]

We gave all of our calves vitamin E shots this year because we noticed a couple of them that kind of buckled a little, and like you we never have really had structure issues.  The E helped in all but one of them so you might try it. 
I'm not sure what the difference is this year, we had it out a number of non clubby bulls and our herd in on a really good vit-min plan just bad luck I guess.

 

[red]

we give the BOSE (SP?) at birth. Not sure if the extra vitamin E will help the back legs. No fever so there is no infection in joint.

Red

 

[ShowStopper]

My sister had a Friction steer a couple years ago with the same problem. He fed out fine but was horrible to look at. :-\
Here's a picture of him. Its not the greatest, but you can see how his knees bucked out and made is toes turn out.

 

[Cowboy]

Red my dear -- this seems to be a pretty young calf, I'd say a week or two at most correct??

Although there doesn't seem to be a fever in the joints as you mention, the joint will not always be hot if there is a low grade navel infection. I have had them get it right out in dry ground, so it really doesn't have to be due to a wet environment.

I certainly do not want to sound like a know it all, we all get a calf every so often that is just plain bad for some reason, but one this I always do is give it the benefit of the doubt!! The doubt inthis case would be to assume she DOES have a low grade infection (Good in reality) and go with a one time dose of 10 ml long acting penicillin. The swollen knees are the first sign I look for, and over the years, I can tell you that several calves would have never made it if it weren't for the good old drug. The ones like this may very well be goners, just too straight in the shoulders and hind leg gs, but still -- it is worth a couple dollars to find out.

I give every one a chance to prove to me it is bad structure before I give up. I would get this calf a shot of penn. as fast as possible -- then give it a week -- if it doesn't improve -- it is indeed a cripple instead of an infection. You just never know for sure -- those bucked knees are a sure sign of stress in some way for sure!

Best of luck hon -- bye bye cow!!! hehehehe

Terry

 

[DL]

Now that's a bummer
although likely genetic /structural - I agree with cowboy - check the joints for heat, swelling, temperature of calf etc - rule out naval ill, pneumonia etc if she checks out ok - she probably is dinner - however I would be cautious putting her in the feedlot (depending on room, size of other calves etc) - 60% of a cows weight is on their front legs - her front legs look pi**ss poor, as was mentioned she is pretty straight in the back throwing more weight to the front - she may do poorly in a group as she grows - not agile not moblie...

not enough vitamin E in BoSe to spit at (it is a preservative in BoSe)

I hate it when this sort of thing happens

 

[frostback]

Hard to tell from photos but we had a calf this year that was way worse than her. He was the same in the front and bow legged and straight in the back but around 3 weeks old straighted right out and  you would never know to see him now. Give her a chance. He did not have navel ill or pnemonia either.

 

[red]

gave 10CC of PCN & some vit E this morning. Got quite a chuckle from guys when I told them it's because my board buddies said so!
Thanks, we'll see but I'm not looking for a miracle!

Red

 

[red]

from Telos-
IMO, breeders need to pay closer attention to these structural issues. Rigid culling through visual appraisal would help. The relationship between shoulder, forearm, knee, cannon and pastern all need to work together like a uniquely designed shock absorber.

Something which seems more common is some of these cattle are getting way out of whack in their twist region and hocks or what appears to be bow legged. From what I have seen which is limited, one side appears to be more "out"  then the other side. Some calves grow out out of it, but the more severe cases get worse.

My question of the week... Have breeders been irresponsible in allowing these structural defects to be propagated and if so, why?

 

[Telos]

Thanks Red! You're the greatest.

If I could, I would send you some 18 wheelers loaded with water. We have had enough down here.

Thanks again.

 

[red]

You made a good comment though Telos- I think that is why I posted the pictures in the first place. IMO, the cow is gone & I'll not use the bull again. I can't afford to have structral problems. I want breeding cattle not train wrecks.

Red