I recently read a article up here in Canada talking about other breeds taking advantage of the angus breed by selling hybrid bull call maxi, suppers and so on. Certian breeds can even register these animals and call them balancers and sell them as pure breds even thought it is evedent that they are not. The gelbvieh assoc. is trying to get better tests in there breed when it comes to the tenderness gene so they went and told breeders that if they want to do this that they should look at the angus breed and even told them which semen companies publish the tests in there books. The guy went on to state that it could be said that the pedigrees and epds of a angus animal is the property of the angus assoc. and its members and there for should not be allowed to be used in sale catologues or marketing of cross bred bulls. He even went on to say that this is a form of copyright infringment. What do you guys think agree or disagree?
Taking advantage of angus.
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RSC
Well-known member
The Angus association can probably do what ever they want and get by with decision. I was at first an Angus Breeder and now I deal more in F1 production to raise the right female I want for Club Calf Production. I just purchased a PB Angus Donor just for this reason. There halve been a large number of numerous other breeders in other breeds that halve spent large amounts of money purchasing Angus genetics in the past 10 years to do just the same. I don't know why the Angus Assoc. would want to bite a pretty good hand that has fed them. It don't mean they won't though!
Another thing to consider, If I was raising let's say 1/2 blood females and I was selling a 1/2 blood Sim female on a sale and I owned her Dam(A registered Angus), How would they police me from listing EPD's and Pedigrees as long as I was also a paid member in the Angus Association for the dam?
Also as long as you were a paid member of the Angus Association and listed in a Catelog the dams EPD/Pedigree and than separate information for the Sire, How could they stop it. When buying a 1/2 blood do you try and come up with a combined EPD? You halve to be pretty educated in both breeds but as long as you can decipher where each side stands in his/her breed, it's usually not tough to see what kind of a pedigree you halve.
JMO,
RSC
Another thing to consider, If I was raising let's say 1/2 blood females and I was selling a 1/2 blood Sim female on a sale and I owned her Dam(A registered Angus), How would they police me from listing EPD's and Pedigrees as long as I was also a paid member in the Angus Association for the dam?
Also as long as you were a paid member of the Angus Association and listed in a Catelog the dams EPD/Pedigree and than separate information for the Sire, How could they stop it. When buying a 1/2 blood do you try and come up with a combined EPD? You halve to be pretty educated in both breeds but as long as you can decipher where each side stands in his/her breed, it's usually not tough to see what kind of a pedigree you halve.
JMO,
RSC
SWMO
Well-known member
I would think that when you put semen on the market and allow a person to purchase that semen you are also selling the pedigree of that bull. Why buy semen on a bull if you don't know his pedigree and can't use it to market the offspring? Just my opinion.
Once you breed up from a 1/2 blood to a 15/16 that animal in most instances is considered a purebred. That is different from a Full Blood. A Full Blood hasn't been bred up from a crossbred line.
How is it taking advantage of a breed to use and promote their animals? Although most sale catalogues I see that sell a crossbred bull or a composite will only list Angus and not the pedigree of that animal.
The only continental breed that I am aware of that has keep it's breed intergrity is the Charolais. You are not allowed to register a Charolais that does not exhibit the breed charaterisics in the United States. Many Charolais have been bred up and are purebred and not full bloods But the animal must exhibit the charolais breed charactteristic to be registered as a purebred. Charolaisusa.com.
Simmentals were not originally black. nor were Limousins nor were Gelbvieh.
Just my thought. But as commercial cowherds become increasingly Angus influenced don't you think that those commercial cattlemen will begin to look for a outcross. Too much of any one breed in a commercial herd and you lose the advantage of Hybrid vigor. It is all about pounds per cow and the performance of the offspring in the feedlot that matter.
Once you breed up from a 1/2 blood to a 15/16 that animal in most instances is considered a purebred. That is different from a Full Blood. A Full Blood hasn't been bred up from a crossbred line.
How is it taking advantage of a breed to use and promote their animals? Although most sale catalogues I see that sell a crossbred bull or a composite will only list Angus and not the pedigree of that animal.
The only continental breed that I am aware of that has keep it's breed intergrity is the Charolais. You are not allowed to register a Charolais that does not exhibit the breed charaterisics in the United States. Many Charolais have been bred up and are purebred and not full bloods But the animal must exhibit the charolais breed charactteristic to be registered as a purebred. Charolaisusa.com.
Simmentals were not originally black. nor were Limousins nor were Gelbvieh.
Just my thought. But as commercial cowherds become increasingly Angus influenced don't you think that those commercial cattlemen will begin to look for a outcross. Too much of any one breed in a commercial herd and you lose the advantage of Hybrid vigor. It is all about pounds per cow and the performance of the offspring in the feedlot that matter.
DLD
Well-known member
They can no more claim that they're being taking advantage of than they themselves are taking advantage of other breeds. They are if not the required base, at least the preferred one for almost all of the appendix/percentage regestries of the continental breeds. These cattle and other composites from commercial breeders have provided a big percentage of the cattle for their highly touted and endeared CAB program. The cattle that these other breeders are using to get these composites has to account for a very big percentage of the registered Angus sold each year. I'd venture to guess just as many, if not more than are purchased for purebred Angus production.
Exactly.
RSC said:
Exactly.
RSC
Well-known member
DLD- That is the exact thought I had. The Angus breed is getting better at giving the industry the YG 2-3 CAB, But in the past they have recieved a big advantage from x-breeding to keep the High yielding CAB cattle.DLD said:
RSC
TJ
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SWMO said:
I agree 100%!! Anytime the genetics of an animal is sold, they are selling the pedigree of that animal as well, IMHO. Just another reason why I am glad that I am using 100% pure Aberdeen Angus, aka LOWLINES, without having to use the "Americanized" Angus Cattle that are registered with the American Angus Association.
garybob
Well-known member
What is yall's opinion on the Genetics (dna profile) of Angus Cattle. Specifically, what about Angus Cattle with all the markers for marbling and tenderness? Wouldn't they be more valuable than, let's say, the high-growth Angus cattle with lower % CAB's in a pen of Fed cattle?
There's a guy down here with 300 Mamas (registered), all line-bred Emulous. He isn't working anything with less than 7 markers. There's not a midget among them, nor, a hard-doing giant. You guys ought to give him a call.
There's a guy down here with 300 Mamas (registered), all line-bred Emulous. He isn't working anything with less than 7 markers. There's not a midget among them, nor, a hard-doing giant. You guys ought to give him a call.
knabe
Well-known member
to me, to a certain extent, breeds ARE linebred, that's what makes them breeds.
the only value placed on any animal is what the market dictates.
the debate is still out there what the relative merit of these genes in what backgrounds have. there undoubtedly will be more tenderness and marbling genes discovered.
there a few angus breeders doing exactly what you mention. there are some criticisms, such as lack of spring of rib, small SC and fertility questions, smaller ribeyes etc.
the best thing about it, is you can at least track traits in a more measurable fashion, check your progress in fewer generations than was possible with conventional methods. there are a few Maine bulls with these traits, and some cows, but haven't seen much buzz about it yet. the only buzz i have seen get repeated is the T1 gene when polled energizer was advertised with it by derouchey's. he seemed to not have much credence in one of the marbling genes, but then with 2 available and 2 carcass traits, at least one can see if they have merit by tracking results as oppossed again to just concentrating lines and praying. the more these traits are utilized, the quicker we will see if they have merit. i'm all for it. it will spur more research, more checking, validation, invalidation etc.
downsides might be the incentive to create new fields of markers rather than more markers within existing fields of tenderness and marbling and the marketing plan for revenue takes too large a foothold at the expense of reality for utilizers of the technology.
there is one bull SAR he's a lad 269M (323682) who is homozygous for T1, T2, unknown for T3, but i think he is at least hetero. he's black, but not homo patterened. as mentioned before, total package 1p is at least hetero for 3 tenderness genes, homo for probably 2 of them. he's thrown a few 6 star individuals, only meaning that the mother gave her 3. a few 6 star individuals sold at derouchey's last year. using his catalog, it's pretty easy to see who has what. i may be wrong on this, but ali has thrown a 6 star heifer, but since he's probably heterozygoous for the tenderness genes, he's not thrown his stars by chance. Major's money man is also at least heterozygous for the 3 tenderness genes. T2 is the least common of the 3 markers from bovigen.
let's go maines, test for those genes and get some carcass data out there!
as far as value, if costco, walmart are the biggest outlets for beef, and they don't market marbling or tenderness, then 50% of the market is left after that, which may be sufficient to allow one to make $ with a premium carcass. so far it's worked for me with my measly two steers sold as "no additives, no hormones, no ionophores, no antibiotics, with free access to pasture, hay and grain."
the only value placed on any animal is what the market dictates.
the debate is still out there what the relative merit of these genes in what backgrounds have. there undoubtedly will be more tenderness and marbling genes discovered.
there a few angus breeders doing exactly what you mention. there are some criticisms, such as lack of spring of rib, small SC and fertility questions, smaller ribeyes etc.
the best thing about it, is you can at least track traits in a more measurable fashion, check your progress in fewer generations than was possible with conventional methods. there are a few Maine bulls with these traits, and some cows, but haven't seen much buzz about it yet. the only buzz i have seen get repeated is the T1 gene when polled energizer was advertised with it by derouchey's. he seemed to not have much credence in one of the marbling genes, but then with 2 available and 2 carcass traits, at least one can see if they have merit by tracking results as oppossed again to just concentrating lines and praying. the more these traits are utilized, the quicker we will see if they have merit. i'm all for it. it will spur more research, more checking, validation, invalidation etc.
downsides might be the incentive to create new fields of markers rather than more markers within existing fields of tenderness and marbling and the marketing plan for revenue takes too large a foothold at the expense of reality for utilizers of the technology.
there is one bull SAR he's a lad 269M (323682) who is homozygous for T1, T2, unknown for T3, but i think he is at least hetero. he's black, but not homo patterened. as mentioned before, total package 1p is at least hetero for 3 tenderness genes, homo for probably 2 of them. he's thrown a few 6 star individuals, only meaning that the mother gave her 3. a few 6 star individuals sold at derouchey's last year. using his catalog, it's pretty easy to see who has what. i may be wrong on this, but ali has thrown a 6 star heifer, but since he's probably heterozygoous for the tenderness genes, he's not thrown his stars by chance. Major's money man is also at least heterozygous for the 3 tenderness genes. T2 is the least common of the 3 markers from bovigen.
let's go maines, test for those genes and get some carcass data out there!
as far as value, if costco, walmart are the biggest outlets for beef, and they don't market marbling or tenderness, then 50% of the market is left after that, which may be sufficient to allow one to make $ with a premium carcass. so far it's worked for me with my measly two steers sold as "no additives, no hormones, no ionophores, no antibiotics, with free access to pasture, hay and grain."
knabe
Well-known member
if you go to bovigen's site, SAR HE'S A LAD269M shows up as a female, but as a male on the Maine Anjou site.
http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/Results.asp?Search=Name&Query=SAR+HE%27S+A+LAD&Submit=Search&QType=True&PageSize=15
he also has a quality grade marker mine don't have.
http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/Results.asp?Search=Name&Query=SAR+HE%27S+A+LAD&Submit=Search&QType=True&PageSize=15
he also has a quality grade marker mine don't have.
garybob
Well-known member
These cattle hardly lack rib, testicles ( hung like ram sheep), masculinity, or, muscle shape. James (prefix JFR) doesn't compromise anything, not performance, and, certainly not fertility. Ask anyone at the Angus association, or the Regional Field man. They'll tell you the same. ???
