Temperament EPDs

Help Support Steer Planet:

cattlejunky

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
538
Location
indiana
10 Ali
10 Habenero
6 kadabra  1 tempermental  1 a sweetheart
8 Alias
1 Aftershock  major attitude.  but the calf did taste good
6 Heatwave. not mean just always a little nervous
10 our herd bull out of irish whiskey.  super sweet calves. he is a pb maine
6 Cowboy Cut
10 witchdoctor
 

TJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
2,036
CAB said:
   As far as the Limi's go, one bull almost single handedly gave the breed it's bad rep. Atlantic 757. They were nuts & he was a very popular bull.
  I've never bred any Sugar Ray, but have been thinking about him alot the last 2 years because of his maternal value and extension. Are his prodgeny as crazy as you all seem to think ,or is some of it environment? I see my cattle twice a day and can get my hands on some calves out in the pasture.

FYI, we only had a few Sugar Rays, but they were pretty docile & none had an attitude problem.  I loved the Sugar Rays that we had!!  However, many ChiAngus composites were notorious for being high strung & I'd guess that Sugar Ray could produce a "snotty one", especially if bred to the "wrong cow". 
FWIW, Walco KY Colonel was a bloodline that we had lots of problems with (sons & grandsons... some of those could not be broken... period!!) & I had a ChiAngus show cow (Grandle Miss Buckeye) that would eat your lunch when she calved & all of her calves were absolute fruit loops, except for 1.  But, even that calf had his moments.  He was sired by HB High Expectation & I started working with him when he was only a few months old.

Ironically, most of the fullblood Chi's that I was around were not high strung, it was almost always the composites that were the nutty ones!! 
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
TJ said:
CAB said:
 

Ironically, most of the fullblood Chi's that I was around were not high strung, it was almost always the composites that were the nutty ones!! 

TJ are you saying make 'em black make 'em nutty? ;)
 

SWMO

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Carthage MO
Great Topic
  Out commercial cow herd.  two stars  frustrating  they all go back to com chi angus cows we purchased out of Texas 15 years ago.  Just can't seem to breed it out of them.  Is it the Chi or the Angus?  :D  On the plus side Nothing and I mean Nothing touches their calves.

Full Throttle/ Full Flush  One Star

Kadabra x our commercial cows You can't even rate.

Cowboy Cut  Two Stars.

Mr Morrison 717  Charolais 10 stars.  Actually most of the Charolais that I have dealt with have really great dispositions.
 

jimmyski

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
99
Location
Colby, KS
I'm not so sure they had a problem as much as a widespread misconception that all Limis are "loco". You know, just like evrybody associates prolapses and balloon teats with Herefords. Cancer Eye, too. Saw some good Herefords at the neighboring County's Fair.
[/quote]

Garybob,
I will agree with you to an extent on this. I wouldn't say that all Limi's are "loco" but the majority that I have been around are just a little bit higher strung. Not necessarily mean at all, just a little bit more flighty than what I would like to see. Same thing with the herefords, although i think most hereford breeders now days place a higher emphasis on pigmentation and that has now limited the occurence of the cancer eye and sunburnt teats. However, back to the original topic. There are outliers in every breed for disposition such as EXT in Angus, Full Throttle- Clubby, and Atlantic -Limousin,  that if used enough can cause problems that can take a while to correct due to their high number of offspring that are in production. I don't think the majority of any breed out there is mean, but if the right bloodlines or genetics are crossed then you can create yourself a problem that way.
 

TJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
2,036
dragon lady said:
[TJ are you saying make 'em black make 'em nutty? ;)

I might be able to make that statement IF I had never seen a Lowline.    ;)  But, I've got too many little black cattle that are more gentle than a pet kitten and even the Lowline crosses seem to be more docile than than the "other" 1/2 of their family tree.  Maybe if Lowlines were excluded, but only then.  ;)

Seriously, while I do think that some very nutty genetics did enter into the Chiangus gene pool from black cattle, I don't think that black cattle should shoulder all the blame.  FWIW, we also had a few goofy red Chi crosses (just not as many) & some goofy red & black Limo crosses too!!  However, the Chi's & Limo's were 2 different kinds of "goofy".  Unless they had babies, about all the goofy acting Chi's would do is mostly kick at you &/or run the other way & then jump every fence for 3 or 4 miles before they stopped (that is IF they stopped).  The goofy acting Limo's were just downright snotty period!   

I also am not saying that it wasn't the Chi's fault, just that most of the Fullbloods that I was around weren't all that bad, but it was when you crossed them with something else is when it seemed to really bring out the beast in them!! 

Now with all that said, we didn't put up with extremely goofy acting cattle for very long.  Except for my "show cow", after the first few years, we culled pretty hard & most of the calves that we had problems with were ones that someone else had raised. 
 

dori36

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
969
Location
Central Lower Michigan
<<Like Fitz, Doc Holliday is as docile as they come.  The guy I bought him from said that the 1st time he clipped Doc, he didn't hardly move (even when clipping his head!!).  I thought he might have be n exaggerating until I clipped him myself without any problems whatsoever.  Hard to believe a 3 1/2 year old bull could be that docile without being bottlefed or show broke or worked with daily, etc., but Doc doesn't fall into any of those categories.  >>

No question, it makes life much easier if the bull itself is also good natured.  I, however, was referring to the calves from Fitz as I think that's what the original post was about - the offspring.  Luckily, I've had enough of them, and there are plenty more "out there", that I can say with confidence that his 'get' are truly "puppy dawg" cattle.
 

TJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
2,036
dori36 said:
<<Like Fitz, Doc Holliday is as docile as they come.  The guy I bought him from said that the 1st time he clipped Doc, he didn't hardly move (even when clipping his head!!).  I thought he might have be n exaggerating until I clipped him myself without any problems whatsoever.  Hard to believe a 3 1/2 year old bull could be that docile without being bottlefed or show broke or worked with daily, etc., but Doc doesn't fall into any of those categories.  >>

No question, it makes life much easier if the bull itself is also good natured.  I, however, was referring to the calves from Fitz as I think that's what the original post was about - the offspring.  Luckily, I've had enough of them, and there are plenty more "out there", that I can say with confidence that his 'get' are truly "puppy dawg" cattle.

You are correct.  I didn't mention his offspring, but I should have.  However, I'll do it now... I can say with certainty that Doc's had more than enough "weanling age" calves in enough herds (in KY & outside of KY), out of enough females from various breeds & pedigrees (calves weaned from 2 imported fullblood Lowlines, and several commercial cross Black & BWF females, along with Angus, Charolais,and Tarentaise), that he's certainly proven himself.  And I have yet to hear about the 1st Doc calf that wasn't docile, and that includes not hearing a single negative comment from my neighbor & his 2 partner brothers (if you call a person living 1.5 miles away a neighbor) who calved out a group of heifers in late winter, earlier this year, that had been exposed to Doc & JR (another bull that I formerly owned... and who is pictured below). 

The 1st AI calves are dropping right now & I don't expect anything to change & so far, just like my neighbors comments, everything that I am hearing from the other breeders have been nothing but good things too.  So, when a bull is that consistant on a wide variety of females (like Doc has been bred to & calves weaned from) in a variety of settings & management schemes, you can pretty well call him "proven", so, I feel that I too, can say with 100% confidence, that Doc will sire as docile cattle as they come.
 

Attachments

  • DCB JR.jpg
    DCB JR.jpg
    585.8 KB · Views: 298

Joe Boy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
692
Telos,
I bought some registered heifers sired by Sugar Ray.  The first one I put a halter on drug me over 5 fences before I got her wrapped up in a tree.  I tied her to the tractor and she got in the seat with me.  I sold all of them.  I bought my first Maine bull from the same guy.  He was a puppy dog and they did not like being handled.  I have a granddaughter of him an she is fine until she calves and you better climb a tree when you see her coming as you try to weigh the little one.  She was the only one that had good hair and she will be 14 in February.  I have kept 8 heifers from her but am down to 4.  One broke my nose and glasses when she calved and would not take her calf.  One became my herd pet.  This cow was shown and did well, but every time we gather the cows her head goes up and she begins to blow and make others nervous.  I try to get her out the gate first.

One fellow I know had Sugar Ray and Pistol Pete cattle and you could not handle them.

No one has said anything about Salers.  My feed lot friend who manages a large feedlot in Kansas tells me that is the breed that gives them the most trouble to work with in feedlots.

I have had Cunia granddaughters and grandsons and they are gentle as puppies.
 

justintime

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
4,346
Location
Saskatchewan Canada
It is often strange how temperment is passed on to offspring. I truly believe that some sires affect almost every calf they sire. Some make the calves really stubborn, and every one will pull on their rope for days when first tied up. Others will sire calves that break to the halter very quickly. The Irish Shorthorn bull we imported, IDS Duke of Dublin, sired exceptionally quiet calves. We took 14 Duke calves to Denver and displayed them in front of the Exchange Bldg, in the Denver yards, and most of the calves had never had a halter on for more than 2 days when we left home. You could lead them anywhere's with no problems.
Duke himself was extremely quiet. I would drive into the pasture and open my truck window, and he would stick his head in and lay it on my lap. When breeding season was over I just drove into the pasture and opened the trailer gate, and he would come across the pasture and walk in the trailer. He did this every time we wanted to bring him home from pasture.

I have also seen the temperment  almost act in reverse of the sire's disposition. When the European ( exotic) breeds were in their early hay- days, I made several trips to the  big studs near Calgary ( Western Breeders - now Alta Genetics, ABS, Prairie Breeders, Universal, and Independent.  I was always amazed by the fact that in those days they actually had some bulls you could go into the pens with. Almost always, they allowed us to go into all the Chianina bull's pens. Most of the Simmentals had locks on their gates. They also allowed people to go in with some of the Maine bulls. I often think about this, and wonder how their liability insurance would stand up today if the studs allowed people that kind of access to the bulls in stud.

Although it was never publicized much, there were several employees killed by some of the bulls. I think the Simmental bull, Abricot , was responsible for killing two workers at Western Breeders. I watched Abricot being taken to be collected once. He had two rings in his nose, with heavy logging chain hanging from each. They had a long pole that was used to catch the chains hanging from his nose. Once caught, he was tied to a small tractor with a cab on it. Once this was done , the gate of his pen was opened and he was taken to the collection room. He was tied to the tractor at all times when being collected and they had rigged up this apparatus so that he could mount while attached. I had several Abricot offspring and the ones I had were quiet animals that were quite normal ti work with. There were many others that had attitude problems.

I also worked part time at Bar 5 Simmental in Manitoba. Lacombe Achilles, was as quiet a bull as you would ever find, however, almost all his calves were bonkers. You were always on guard, when you were working with Achilles offspring, as you never knew when they would explode. When they did explode they went balistic, not just part way. Bar 5 Mr. Dutch was the complete opposite. We fed him by dumping feed over a 8 foot fence by climbing a step ladder . Everything that could be wrecked in his pen was totally destroyed.  One guy who worked at Bar 5 thought he could slip into Dutch's pen and quickly get something. Dutch  got him down and smashed him up pretty good before he was able to roll under a fence. Bar 5 used to lease a tract of land for pasture, and  I remember that Dutch put a duck hunter up a tree and kept him there for 3 days one fall.

I guess there are exceptions to any rule, however, in most cases I do believe that there is a stong genetic link to temperment and environment can have just as much affect in regards to what temperment any animal has.  Personally, I probably cull harder on temperment than most other traits. I do not want to have to work with cattle that could injure or even kill someone. I have shipped some pretty good bulls for just looking at me the wrong way a second time. I have done the same thing with cows that are hard to handle at calving time, or when  being worked. I feel that there are enough good, quiet cattle on the planet for me to stock my farm.
 

Show Heifer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,221
Not much time now, but couldn't let this one go.....
CAB: The limi bull you refered to is 747, as in the airplane, as in no two feet on the ground at the same time!! AWFUL cattle as far as disposition!! Also Eclair was known to throw man killers.
Yes, limis HAVE and HAD a attitude problem, but the EPDS have helped....it has also helped that the "rich mans breed" has gotten out to the working man where bad temperments were handled by the actual owner and they have no mercy! We raised limis when I was a child....and Dad had NO, (and I mean NO) tolerance for bad attitudes. His motto was simple:: There is a sale SOMEWHERE every day of the week. And bred cows/heifers sell everyday.  Both meaning any animal on our farm either behaved or it was off to town THAT VERY DAY. No exceptions.
Looking back I chuckle at when folks would come to look at our cattle (we sold lots of bulls and replacement heifers) and they would always commmet on their dispositions. I never apprecieated them until now!!!

I have a list, but have to hit the work....will come back later!
 

CAB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
5,607
Location
Corning,Iowa
  I've made the statement B4 that the Chi's are not so wild, but very smart. Anyone else know what I mean by that statement. Not that it makes awhole lot of difference, but man they are just smarter than the ave. bovine. Cab
 

Telos

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,267
Location
Dallas, Texas
Show Heifer, I forgot about 747 and Eclair. First I want to say what a great job the Limi breeders have done as far as improving temperament, but both Eclair and 747 were the Kings of bad temperament (they had 'evil' in their genes and could be very dangerous to be around) making Sugar Ray and Throttle out to be puppy dogs.

CAB, Chi's are smart. What is strange, the fullbloods I was around seemed fairly docile. They do not forget anything.
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
Great post GIT, great stories too - I think you'll have to get some sort of award!! I'll have to cogitate...

I never really understood why it was OK for a cow to try to kill you after she calves - cows ain't stupid and she can't be that dumb that she thinks you are a coyote or a mountain lion or a wolf so she must be just interested in flinging humans around - why is that acceptable?

I cull real hard for temperament - one strike of bad behavior with malice and to paraphrase Show Heifer's dad "out the door" - life is way to short. I've got a list too but the sun is out and there is work to be done wo it will have to wait!

I don't really see Chi's as smarter than other bovines - the fullblood Chi's had to have some pretty docile traits to be draft animals and live so closely with humans. But like European dogs do you really think German SHepherd breeders send their best GSDs to the US? Although I have run into some Chi's that were really nice tempered it is not my favorite composite to work -  Chi's really make me appreciate the producers with the squeeze chutes 
;D ;D
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
i remember 747 in college.  is therea HYPP gene equivalent in cattle?,  just like horse impressive, they only showed his head in all the ads.
 

TJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
2,036
Telos said:
CAB, Chi's are smart. What is strange, the fullbloods I was around seemed fairly docile. They do not forget anything.

Yes, Fullblood Chi's seem to be VERY smart & you are correct about their memory too!  FWIW, we had a Chi bull that got dehorned as a yearling.  Pretty docile bull, but he absolutely did not like being de-horned by our Vet.  After that experience, anytime anyone got near him wearing white... it was on!!  I've heard that cattle are color blind, BUT this bull would be fine until he saw someone wearing white & then he would go absolutely nuts!!  Red or any other color would not bother him, but anybody wearing white would make him go crazy!!  At first we didn't know what was going on & then we realized that wearing the color white was causing it & we remembered that the Vet who de-horned him was wearing white coveralls that day.  I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the bull remember being de-horned & didn't want something like that to happen to him again.  The Chi breeder that we knew real well also shared similar stories about how smart Chi's were & how much they remembered.         

 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
at a 4H show where the kids wear all white, he might have thought he died and gone to hell!  my dog is that way with men with hats cause my neighbor "trained" her with the throw rock and hide hand technique.  even barks at me when i put hat on.
 

DL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
3,622
TJ said:
Telos said:
CAB, Chi's are smart. What is strange, the fullbloods I was around seemed fairly docile. They do not forget anything.

Yes, Fullblood Chi's seem to be VERY smart & you are correct about their memory too!  FWIW, we had a Chi bull that got dehorned as a yearling.  Pretty docile bull, but he absolutely did not like being de-horned by our Vet.  After that experience, anytime anyone got near him wearing white... it was on!!  I've heard that cattle are color blind, BUT this bull would be fine until he saw someone wearing white & then he would go absolutely nuts!!  Red or any other color would not bother him, but anybody wearing white would make him go crazy!!  At first we didn't know what was going on & then we realized that wearing the color white was causing it & we remembered that the Vet who de-horned him was wearing white coveralls that day.  I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the bull remember being de-horned & didn't want something like that to happen to him again.  The Chi breeder that we knew real well also shared similar stories about how smart Chi's were & how much they remembered.         

TJ - what you are describing doesn't make the Chi's smart - it is "normal" cattle behavior according to Temple Grandin - unpleasant experiences are remembered by all cattle - sometimes it is a general memory ie the guy in the white coat and sometimes it is a specific memory "that darn Jason" - cattle as a species are not stupid, despite their reputation, and they remember both specific incidence and specific people. Cattle also are not color blind but they do not see colors like we do - according to Grandin hey have color preferences and dislikes - she uses this information when building facilities - (if I remember correctly- somebody correct me if I am wrong) they don't like yellow or blue (don't quote me - I'll check).....her website is a treasure of information,
 

knabe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
13,639
Location
Hollister, CA
That's pretty funny ELBEE that you mention rust and mud.  temple says that the color that calms cattle down is that dark brown orangish mud brown primer looking color and they paint working chutes and curved aisleways with it.  not sure what the companies that paint them red, blue, green think about that.  she also says if they have to look into light to get into the squeeze, the are hesitant about it cause they can't see.  i need to put your truck in front of my squeeze.
 

Latest posts

Top