The best bull today?

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oakbar

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So many secrets----If this keeps up we won't be able to talk about anything on this site!!!    Wish I had a secret sire I could use and then I'd keep his offspring a secret and I wouldn't tell anyone how my cows are bred.    I wonder how long I'd stay in business that way!!    Call me old fashioned---I like using bulls I've actually heard of and that my customers might even know!!
 

aj

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western kansas
A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments. :)
 

oakview

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I also noticed that the original question mentioned the words 'alive today' so I won't mention the no longer living noted Shorthorn sires Trump, Dividend, Leader 21st, or Bapton Constructor.  I would cast my vote for Solution in the alive today category mostly because his progeny have cut the widest swath on the biggest stage.  There are probably no Shorthorn bulls that have been thoroughly tested enough commercially to present a strong case for themselves.  There may be plenty of bulls out there that in certain situations are far superior to Solution.  However, none of them has achieved what he has achieved to this point.  If I had to pick one, based on the success he has had in his particular specialty,  I would say Solution is the most dominant living Shorthorn bull.

I would like to read more input from the other breeds.  Everbody likes controversy.  Why should the Shorthorn people have all the fun?

P.S.  We have 4 herd bulls, one of which is by far the best bull to ever walk the face of the earth.
 

shortyjock89

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aj said:
A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments. :)

Good point. I know that there are not two actual lines of TH, it came from Improver, but in the 90's, there were two types of cattle that were both heavily used that could have carried the TH defect.  I do think it's kind of funny (not ha ha exactly), that Double Stuff was used to rocket Shorthorns into the club calf scene, and bulls like Improver 57 were used by programs like Waukaru to make good functional cows, and both carry TH.  I know that 57 isn't used much anymore, and that the commercial side of things is cracking down hard on TH, but it shows how diverse the cattle are that could carry the defect.  Anyhow, I don't want to hijack this thread anymore, I like Shorthorns, and I like the diversity.  Different strokes people.
 

OH Breeder

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TheTruth said:
zach said:
just a note, double stuff and vision were th and pha carriers, how much affect on the breed did that have?

Double Stuff is "Double Trouble", and he is the worst thing that ever happened to the Shorthorn Breed.

Double Stuff should have been castrated back when he was a calf.   

No Double Trouble is a TH Free Double Stuff son. Which lead to Sabatoge( the double trouble son)......but now i would expect you know that already.... ;)
 

linnettejane

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aj said:
A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments. :)

ok, if there are not two lines, then let me share with you my story..........i leased tka outcast from todd caldwell, had 10 calves....not long after the calves were born, we found out he was a th carrier....i had kept a couple of his heifers so i sent in the lab work to dr. beever.....he ran the test....i was talking to him on the phone and mentioned that the calves were out of outcast and he said, and i quote..."oh no!  i will have to rerun the test, i ran your blood samples on the double vision line not the outcast line...there are two different strands"...so another two weeks go by and......my results were th free on the dv run, but th carrier on the outcast run...  any comments??? 
 

shortyjock89

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I've talked to Dr. Beever, he says that Outkast is the anomaly. Pretty strange.
 

knabe

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                            >                                            >
------------------------______-------------------------________________-------------------------
                                outcast <                                Stinger                    <

if the lines are DNA, and you need one set of primers (which help amplify dna in a specific region along with dna polymerase and other mumbo jumbo) indicated by the arrows, you have two sets of primers.  the lab probably has to run the sets of primers independently to not get curious results, so they probably need to know the background of the animal in question,or just run both sets all the time, which, i guess in theory, you could get an extremely rare crossover event BETWEEN the two regions and get both defects in the same allele.  you could also get both defects in a dead calf probably with different backgrounds.  if you ran both sets, maybe the designed fragment lengths are similar and therefore make scoring difficult.

more on the arrows.  the arrows indicate amplification of that specific region of dna.  this amplified product is then digested by a dna sequence specific enzyme to yield either one or two products.  if you have one size fragment of the unaffected length, the calf is safe.  if you have two different size bands, you have a carrier.  i guess you could test a dead calf and you might get a twice as bright bands as the yield would be double.

this is probably gobbledygook.


bottom line, there is NO CONSPIRACY with this test.  the only conspiracy is the need to keep this defect going.  again, i still say, that if there is diversity in this gene and the PHA gene that has merit, breed on a very selective and designed basis.  if not, it's terminal in my book.

i didnt' put any ratio's to have dusty correct my math as he does things the correct way by doing the square.  i wish more would use this parable to breed for other traits.  oops that would be line breeding and no one wants to do that, except for maybe 3 or 4 people on the planet including myself.  of that number, i'm the loser who hasn't done anything yet.                             outcast
 

knabe

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two regions, must test each one independently.  must preknow? which one to test for.  no conspiracy.

the above is only a metaphor and may not be inclusive of all genotypes of TH.

maybe this will help

http://www.ppsk.usm.my/lecturers/mravi/pcr_quick_time_movie.htm

or jsut google pcr and video clip, or mpeg or something and watch a short clip of the magic of molecular biology.
 

Barrel Racer

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linnettejane said:
aj said:
A minor point...there are not two lines of th...double stuff got it from the Improver line.I think there are perfect bulls for different needs. Like double vision might be a perfect bull for the showring but ANY carrier is not acceptable to the commercial industry. There are to many choices out there for them so they will not use carriers. If you require cattle to weigh under 100# at birth alot of Shorthorn lines are eliminated. So you have perfect bulls for certain enviroments. :)

ok, if there are not two lines, then let me share with you my story..........i leased tka outcast from todd caldwell, had 10 calves....not long after the calves were born, we found out he was a th carrier....i had kept a couple of his heifers so i sent in the lab work to dr. beever.....he ran the test....i was talking to him on the phone and mentioned that the calves were out of outcast and he said, and i quote..."oh no!  i will have to rerun the test, i ran your blood samples on the double vision line not the outcast line...there are two different strands"...so another two weeks go by and......my results were th free on the dv run, but th carrier on the outcast run...  any comments??? 

Linnette -  Let me see if I can help... There are two mutations that can cause TH.  One labeled the "Improver mutation" one the "Outcast mutation".  We found this vital info out when we were validating the test (we only sequence a few individuals and then test all the other animals in the pedigree used to map it to make sure that they all carry the mutation), so we went through and all animals acted like they should except for Outcast.  I reisolated the sample twice, got a new straw of semen did it again, resequenced the entire gene still the same outcome, did not show the Improver deletion.  We did not have any affected calves by Outcast at that time, so we got I think 5 calves, three affected and two either carriers or normal.  Parentage verified all calves and they were fine, ran the markers that were close to the mutated gene and they showed the affected calves were "missing" an allele or that portion of the chromosome, long story short it was very complicated to figure out, but Outcast actually has a larger deletion than Improver (37,000 bases vs. ~435,000 bases).  So basically how the test worked at that time was that we tested for the normal chromosome and the deleted portion, problem is that since the Outcast deletion is so much larger it had to be ran a using different conditions to pick up the deleted portion... hopefully that makes some sense  ;D
 

Barrel Racer

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Doc said:
  Hey BR how's your colt doing? Did you sell it?

Hey Doc,
Thanks for asking.  She's doing great, growing like a weed.  They came to look at her, loved her and want me to call them as soon as she's weaned to discuss a price.  I'm glad this way I get a bit of repreve, I hate the business aspect of this considering I really didn't plan on selling her in the first place.  Turbo goes to the trainers in October, so I'm excited for that too!
 
 

garybob

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Feb 4, 2007
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NW Arkansas
TheTruth said:
In regards to Purebred Operations and Club Calf Operations being different from each other, I have to respectfully disagree that it was not always that way.   

There was a time when club calf (Show Animals) were more functional unlike some of the post legged hair balls that we see in the ring today. 

How I long for the good ol' days of closely clipped, slick haired Shorthorn Show Cattle. 

Hi Gary Bob!
Slick-haired cattle, especially for me in fescue and bermudagrass country. Don't forget the feet & heels! I live in an area with flinty, hilly pastures that are on red clay . No corn here!

Howdy to You, up North.

GB
 

knabe

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TheTruth said:
I have to say that I have done a study on Trump's progeny on the ASA Database, and I am finding that over 50 percent of  his females do not go on to make momma cows it would seem.  I'm not saying that all of Trump's females are horrible, however IMO, Dividend had better functionally sound females than what Trump has had.

I'm not a big fan of the trupm cattle i've seen.  however, to do a study, one should compare and constrast several bulls under this criteria at different calves on the ground bins.  i would venture to say that the "better" a bull is, the more he is experimented with and this may be a somewhat unfair observation regarding trump.  It may be there is simply a limited demand for ideal trump cattle in general with the numbers he seems capable of producing compared to other bulls.  in this sense, he's the outlier, even though he probably has the most registered offspring.

the following would probably be a small pool.

How many bulls 10 years and younger with 50 females or more other than angus have 50% of their females registered and producing past the age of 5?  this number is probably limited by the fact that most purebred breeders give up around year 7.

change the numbers to 20 year old bull leaving the other numbers the same.
 
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