THE FAIRNESS POLICE

[knabe]

we should have a complaining contest.

make it a 4h project.

 

[CRS]

we should have a complaining contest.

make it a 4h project.

The funny thing is that someone will have an unfair advantage there too.  We will then have threads about wearing pants being unfair and that the kids who wore shorts had some type of special upbringing from parents who paid for professional clothes changers. 

It is very simple, buy the best you can and fit the best you can, if that means paying for it, so be it.... It is America after all and Capitalism is based on unfair advantages.... Try playing Monopoly with everyone getting the same thing... Not much fun!

 

[simba]

Here is my 2 cents on why no rules out there are about what happens  at the show is gonna amount to a hill of beans over which steer, heifer, goat, pig, or whatever other animal wins the show.  It is because YOU CANT WIN A SHOW AT THE SHOW.  Thats right, you win the show during the months leading up to a show at home.  Thats why making them slick didnt change who was winning, because regardless of who wins haired or slick, the work has to be put in at home and those families or their employees were getting the work done months before the show.  I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.  If it did then the judge wasnt worth the space he was taking up because he wasnt evaluating cattle, he was playing politics of some sort and it didnt matter how good the calf under the hair was anyway.  People cheat at everything, rules and laws never stopped them, so you cant make rules to make things fair, its sad but true. 
Now on that note you all know that I am a staunch supporter that at any show where a kid has to be a 4-H or FFA member then that animal was supposed to be a project and as it is a project then that child should be expected to learn something.  I used to be a fan of those shows requiring kids to turn in a project book at the show, but that was years ago when I was young and naive before I was old enough to realize that all the other kids' moms were doing their record books for them.  I was at a show one time that I believe it was the 4-H show, before the kids were elligible for premiums or to make sale they had to go through an interview that asked questions about their project.  I liked that idea, but then I realised that at bigger shows it would be a logistical nightmare to interview all those kids. So there really is no perfect plan, but everyone is going to complain until their version of perfect exists. 

Now just a few sidenotes, hiring a fitter  isnt always a choice a family can make.  Some families want their kids to have the experience but just cant afford the fitters, etc.  Funny thing is those people ussually have everything going against them yet they work their tails off to be in the lower end of the class, and they are just happy to be there.   As far as kids fitting their own, yes its possible, I grew up with a single mother on a teachers salary who never received child support and lost everything in the divorce.  I was one of those kids just happy to be there, I never had a pro fitter, I was lucky enough to have some people close to me that were fairly good with what they did.  They helped me the first couple years to get my calves clipped a few days before I left for a show, but after that I was own my own.  I was lucky enough to have a few small time breeders that had fairly decent cattle that started either selling to me cheap or just letting me take calves to show.  I never once had any outside help at a show except for maybe Louivilles a few times when I went with a group and we helped each other, but even at  our state shows, I did it all myself.  My mom filing feed pans or water buckets or holding stuff for me was about the extent of the help that I had.  Now the most I ever had at a show was 2 or 3, mainly because I couldnt afford any more, but also because I knew I couldnt handle anymore by myself.  And you know what I got it all done, my cattle were always ready by the time they needed to be in the ring, it was never what many of you would consider a "pro"job, but they looked good and I never once got beat because the fit job wasnt good enough.  Now I never won any major shows, but I did move to the top of some classes at some good sized shows, won some classes at our state shows, middle of classes at Louisville.  But that was honestly the most I could of ever hoped for from those calves.  So it is doable, and not hiring a pro is not always choice, sometimes it isnt an option.  And you know what looking back I am glad it wasnt an option for me, because I learned SO much having to do it myself.  That is my reward, because I can look at most of the folks my age that I showed against that got the banner/buckle type rewards and know that they didnt walk away with half the knowledge or abilility that I did.

And a final thought in this long diatribe. LOL.  I agree that making the shows slick here in Texas  slick or blow and go didnt accomplish the intentions of evening the playing field, but for other reasons  I think its the best decision some shows ever made.  Have you ever been in the barns at Houston during the steer and heifer shows? Ever noticed how they are piled on top of each other like sardines? Now imagine what it would be like if we had to get chutes in there, or even have enough space to move around one and fit without a chute.  Not to mention the divas  who always think they are more important and should be entitled to twice as much space  as everyone else.  Like I said slick or full fit dont really matter to me, I do like workiing hair on one.  But shows like Houston would be a train wreck if you opened it up and let people start trying to fit in there.

(clapping)  Very well said, twistedshowstock. I couldn't agree more!

 

[GONEWEST]

Here is my 2 cents on why no rules out there are about what happens  at the show is gonna amount to a hill of beans over which steer, heifer, goat, pig, or whatever other animal wins the show.  It is because YOU CANT WIN A SHOW AT THE SHOW.  That's right, you win the show during the months leading up to a show at home.  That's why making them slick didnt change who was winning, because regardless of who wins haired or slick, the work has to be put in at home and those families or their employees were getting the work done months before the show.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but the above would be a bunch of hog wash. Perhaps there was a time when you could out work someone. It's no different than saying a football team will be better because they work harder in the weight room. EVERYONE who is able to compete, works hard in the weight room. You have to be able to do that just to stay on the field. Same with show calves. Just to COMPETE you have to do your homework. For some reason you assume that someone who wins worked harder than someone who didn't. I HATE to hear a judge say during showmanship that a kid needs to do his homework and get the calf to behave or set up better. That guy doesn't have the first clue to what that kid does at home. Maybe the heifer is coming into heat, maybe something unusual to him has him spooked, maybe he don't like the judges Old Spice. Why not just say the kids calf didn't behave for him today rather than accuse the kids of being lazy? But I digress.

The point is EVERYONE who is a serious competitor does the homework. There are no secrets anymore. If you don't think these people who buy $30,000 steers do their home work or know how to feed one,  your head is in the sand. I asked a guy $2500 for a calf once and he told me it was too much. His bunch would just buy a cheap one and "beat the rest with a feed bucket." OOOOOOO K. I got news for him. There are a million other people out there with a feed bucket. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken pookie. There might have been a time when you knew something other people didn't know, when kids weren't as competitive as they are today when that would work. But today, if you don't know how to take care of one or how to feed one its because you are just starting or it's your own fault. EVERYONE that has a chance at all does their homework.

Lets get back to the point of the original post. The specific rule that I mentioned allowed the immediate family to help with the calf. Take two steers that arrive on the fairgrounds as an equals. One is shown by a ten year old who's parents include a nurse and a guy who sells..................ice to Eskimos. The other steer is owned by an 18 year old who's parents sell club calves as their profession. Who is going to win? You know the 10 year old doesn't stand a chance. My point is that it is the fault of the people who made the rules that this is true, not the fact that one family are professional cattlemen. The point is that although the first family may have done everything right just and worked just as hard as the professional cattle family, they don't have the  chance to have their child rewarded DUE TO THE RULES set up by "Do Gooders" who are trying to make it fair. If they allowed whom ever the family wanted to fit the calf so it could be presented the best it could possibly be, THEN it would be fair whether the family CHOSE to or not.

And that is NOT why slick steers in TX are won by the same families. What work is there for a kid to a slick calf? Clean the stall,  throw some feed in a trough and make sure it has water? You have to look at it and feed it correctly? It's not rocket surgery, no one has a patent on that. It's because the same people who are willing to buy the best animals always would no matter if they had hair or not. And because they buy them from the same guys that have the right connections to get it done. Doesn't change a thing. Just takes the "homework" out of the project for the kids and FOR ME that is the most important part.




 I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.

I am nominating this for the most asinine statement ever made on steer planet.If its not important, tell me why Sullivans are wealthy from the sale of show supplys? Have they all DUPED us? Can we just bring one in any old way and compete? Why was Kirk Stierwalt able to make a profession from fitting cattle. Why does he always say "There is fitting to show and then there is fitting to win?" Maybe you could run the statement by him that fitting never won a show. I sincerely think the story of your own experience is very admirable. I really do. And I have zero problem with anyone who wants to do it that way, thinks that's important. However, FORCING someone else to do that because you either can't afford to hire someone or think you shouldn't isn't right. You said it wasn't the fit job that got you beat, it was the quality of the animal. So lets say you were 12 and you had the steer that won at Fort Worth last year. Do you think it would have won if YOU had glued it? Do you think there is a reason that Travis fit that steer instead of the boy who owned it and led it in? What would that reason be? You think it's just because he likes the smell of adhesive in the morning? It makes a difference. Your dang right it does.  And if hiring a pro isn't an option for some, lets even say most, does that mean that coolers and with huge electric bills should be outlawed as well? What about these aluminum chutes that cost more than a steel chute? How far are you gonna take it? That all do not have the same shouldn't be a deciding factor.

If it did then the judge wasn't worth the space he was taking up because he wasn't evaluating cattle, he was playing politics of some sort and it didn't matter how good the calf under the hair was anyway.  People cheat at everything, rules and laws never stopped them, so you cant make rules to make things fair, its sad but true.  
Now on that note you all know that I am a staunch supporter that at any show where a kid has to be a 4-H or FFA member then that animal was supposed to be a project and as it is a project then that child should be expected to learn something.  I used to be a fan of those shows requiring kids to turn in a project book at the show, but that was years ago when I was young and naive before I was old enough to realize that all the other kids' moms were doing their record books for them.  I was at a show one time that I believe it was the 4-H show, before the kids were ell for premiums or to make sale they had to go through an interview that asked questions about their project.  I liked that idea, but then I realized that at bigger shows it would be a logistical nightmare to interview all those kids. So there really is no perfect plan, but everyone is going to complain until their version of perfect exists.  

Now just a few sidenotes, hiring a fitter  isn't always a choice a family can make.  Some families want their kids to have the experience but just cant afford the fitters, etc.  Funny thing is those people usually have everything going against them yet they work their tails off to be in the lower end of the class, and they are just happy to be there.   As far as kids fitting their own, yes its possible, I grew up with a single mother on a teachers salary who never received child support and lost everything in the divorce.  I was one of those kids just happy to be there, I never had a pro fitter, I was lucky enough to have some people close to me that were fairly good with what they did.  They helped me the first couple years to get my calves clipped a few days before I left for a show, but after that I was own my own.  I was lucky enough to have a few small time breeders that had fairly decent cattle that started either selling to me cheap or just letting me take calves to show.  I never once had any outside help at a show except for maybe Louivilles a few times when I went with a group and we helped each other, but even at  our state shows, I did it all myself.  My mom filing feed pans or water buckets or holding stuff for me was about the extent of the help that I had.  Now the most I ever had at a show was 2 or 3, mainly because I couldnt afford any more, but also because I knew I couldnt handle anymore by myself.  And you know what I got it all done, my cattle were always ready by the time they needed to be in the ring, it was never what many of you would consider a "pro"job, but they looked good and I never once got beat because the fit job wasnt good enough.  Now I never won any major shows, but I did move to the top of some classes at some good sized shows, won some classes at our state shows, middle of classes at Louisville.  But that was honestly the most I could of ever hoped for from those calves.  So it is doable, and not hiring a pro is not always choice, sometimes it isnt an option.  And you know what looking back I am glad it wasnt an option for me, because I learned SO much having to do it myself.  That is my reward, because I can look at most of the folks my age that I showed against that got the banner/buckle type rewards and know that they didnt walk away with half the knowledge or abilility that I did.


Again, I sincerely admire your experience. It's awesome that you were able to do well alone and take pride in that.  But don't make everyone else. And I am sure you are correct that you didn't lose because  of a fitter. But if you had animals that were equal to those that won and you had competed against one presented better then indeed you would have lost because of a better fitter. It shouldn't matter that it isn't an option for everyone. Does "from each according to their ability, to each according to his need" sound familiar to you? You are right that there are people who would show cattle for ever no matter the place they come in, they would play a sport and practice every day even if they had to sit on the bench the whole time. There are those that would play the tuba endlessly to sit in  he last chair. But I propose that they are in the minority. And if your goal is for this project to grow and continue then you need to make it as easy as you can for as many as can to have success by what ever definition that defines it. You certainly always seem like a benevolent person. If you were at a show and a family that you knew was new, less experienced, you'd help them learn. However if you showed under the rule that I described, you couldn't. And so those people stay at the bottom because it is difficult and time consuming to learn without help. And I propose that MOST kids, if not successful in some measure at what ever they undertake, will seek another activity until they find something they can have success at. I am sure you like me see all the time families showing cattle that would be similar in context to a kid playing baseball in blue jeans when everyone else has a uniform. They need to be helped and taught. Not placed all alone and left to fend for themselves by some rule that is designed to make it "fair for all."

And the part about your reward and the pride you have that you did it all on your own and have so much more knowledge and ability than someone who  had the banner/buckle as their reward.....that same logic says that I might not have gotten that job, but I didn't hire a professional resume writer OR an interview coach. By golly I didn't get it all by myself.  I might not have gotten that scholarship, but dang if I am going to a tutor to get help get my grades up, I'm gonna not get it all by myself.  and I might not have gotten into that school I wanted to, but by golly I didn't take a course to help me prepare for the MCAT, I flubbed that bad boy all on my own!  You can take all of that pride and knowledge and ability along with a dollar down to the store on the corner and buy a Coke. It should be up to the parent what "lesson" you want the kid to learn at the fair. Not the government telling them they know what is best for them. Personally I like the one that says" In life there will always be someone wealthier than you, smarter than you, better looking than you, someone physically able to work harder than you. You will have to compete with them every day of your life. Now would be a good time to do learn how to do it.  Or you could move to FL and participate in the state steer show where everything is equal, rodeo stock don't need fitting and wouldn't grow hair if you put them in the freezer.

And a final thought in this long diatribe. LOL.  I agree that making the shows slick here in Texas  slick or blow and go didnt accomplish the intentions of evening the playing field, but for other reasons  I think its the best decision some shows ever made.  Have you ever been in the barns at Houston during the steer and heifer shows? Ever noticed how they are piled on top of each other like sardines? Now imagine what it would be like if we had to get chutes in there, or even have enough space to move around one and fit without a chute.  Not to mention the divas  who always think they are more important and should be entitled to twice as much space  as everyone else.  Like I said slick or full fit dont really matter to me, I do like workiing hair on one.  But shows like Houston would be a train wreck if you opened it up and let people start trying to fit in there.

 

[DakotaCow]

Haven't read every post. Maybe it was said but here I go. Best calf should win.......wet, dry, haired, or slick I don't care.

 

[knabe]

I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.

has it ever made a difference in winning or losing an argument?

employing professionals at anything seems like such a waste of money.

 

[simba]

Gonewest, everyone has an opinion, and I respect yours. 

I don't for one second believe life is "fair"...but I do believe anyone who thinks it's ok to bring Pros into a youth show is sadly missing a chance to give a kid some life lessons that he or she can use when they're 30 or 40 years old.    Winning is great, but winning at all costs is sad.  Lastly, I think 12 year olds should compete against the 18 year olds.  That 12 year old will be 18 one day, and will get the chance to put to use their 6 years of hard earned experience, just like in the "real world".. 

I could be wrong, and that is okay, but that is my opinion.

Seriously, Would you also believe that 12 year olds competed in baseball with 18 year olds? What do you think a 12 year old would do with a 6'6" 245 lb 18 year old throwing a baseball 90 miles an hour? would you tell him, "Hey, you'
ll be 18 one day and you'll have your chance to put that hard earned experience to work." Doubtful. It's also doubtful that 12 year old will be playing baseball at 18 because after a couple years of absolute failure and embarrassment at the hands of 18 year olds, he won't play baseball any more. Why would a kid showing cattle be any differerent?

I completely agree with gatorsrule.  GONEWEST, here is a scenario for you. I’m at the World Hereford Conference, 2012 in the Senior Polled Yearling Bull Class. All the other breeders in my class have been breeding, showing, feeding, and fitting for more years than I have been alive. They all have more money, better setups, family in the business, access to better genetics, more connections and bigger names than me. My homegrown, bred and owned bull came from a cowherd of four, while they all have large purebred herds to choose from. Pretty much like your baseball scenario. But guess who ended up winning her class and went on to win National Polled Hereford Reserve Champion Senior Yearling Bull? Me, the 17 year old girl with no hope in hell. And you know what’s even funnier? The girl who beat me for Champion was 16! You can make up whatever reason you want as to why we won. But the bottom line is we did. This is why I think 12 year olds should be allowed to compete against 18 year olds, or in this case 16 & 17 year olds vs. people 40+.  I’m not saying that this happens often, but if you never give kids a chance to compete against the best then you’ll never know how well they might do. The kids that enjoy working with the cattle will stick to it unitl they are winning purple. The kids who quit probably were never really into it that much anyway. What is the life lesson that you learn by not bringing in professionals to a youth show? You take pride in what you did, win or lose?

I believe that that is exactly the lesson that should be learnt/taught. Kids should learn to be proud of what they showed, even if they placed last and knew they deserved it. They should learn to work harder to achive higher. They should learn to win gracefully and lose gracefully. Trust me, I spent a lot of years placing last before anyone ever took me seriously. 

I completely agree with you that slick shows or wet shows won't change who's winning. But it might make that first time showman a little less nervous since he's never fitted a leg in his life. I've always said, if you can't handle the politics and don't like the rules, maybe you shouldn't be in the showring. Here is a link to a story I wrote in the summer of 2011, it might help you understand why I feel so strongly the way I do. http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=35058.0

 

[knabe]

I completely agree with you that slick shows or wet shows won't change who's winning. But it might make that first time showman a little less nervous since he's never fitted a leg in his life. I've always said, if you can't handle the politics and don't like the rules, maybe you shouldn't be in the showring. Here is a link to a story I wrote in the summer of 2011, it might help you understand why I feel so strongly the way I do. http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=35058.0

nervousness means you care.  reducing it is reducing caring. 

if one learned all there was the first time out, there would be no excellence. 

no one deserves to win, but they deserve to keep improving.

 

[GONEWEST]

Gonewest, everyone has an opinion, and I respect yours.  

I don't for one second believe life is "fair"...but I do believe anyone who thinks it's ok to bring Pros into a youth show is sadly missing a chance to give a kid some life lessons that he or she can use when they're 30 or 40 years old.    Winning is great, but winning at all costs is sad.   Lastly, I think 12 year olds should compete against the 18 year olds.   That 12 year old will be 18 one day, and will get the chance to put to use their 6 years of hard earned experience, just like in the "real world"..  

I could be wrong, and that is okay, but that is my opinion.

Seriously, Would you also believe that 12 year olds competed in baseball with 18 year olds? What do you think a 12 year old would do with a 6'6" 245 lb 18 year old throwing a baseball 90 miles an hour? would you tell him, "Hey, you'
ll be 18 one day and you'll have your chance to put that hard earned experience to work." Doubtful. It's also doubtful that 12 year old will be playing baseball at 18 because after a couple years of absolute failure and embarrassment at the hands of 18 year olds, he won't play baseball any more. Why would a kid showing cattle be any differerent?

I completely agree with gatorsrule.  GONEWEST, here is a scenario for you. I’m at the World Hereford Conference, 2012 in the Senior Polled Yearling Bull Class. All the other breeders in my class have been breeding, showing, feeding, and fitting for more years than I have been alive. They all have more money, better setups, family in the business, access to better genetics, more connections and bigger names than me. My homegrown, bred and owned bull came from a cowherd of four, while they all have large purebred herds to choose from. Pretty much like your baseball scenario. But guess who ended up winning her class and went on to win National Polled Hereford Reserve Champion Senior Yearling Bull? Me, the 17 year old girl with no hope in hell. And you know what’s even funnier? The girl who beat me for Champion was 16! You can make up whatever reason you want as to why we won. But the bottom line is we did. This is why I think 12 year olds should be allowed to compete against 18 year olds, or in this case 16 & 17 year olds vs. people 40+.  I’m not saying that this happens often, but if you never give kids a chance to compete against the best then you’ll never know how well they might do. The kids that enjoy working with the cattle will stick to it unitl they are winning purple. The kids who quit probably were never really into it that much anyway. What is the life lesson that you learn by not bringing in professionals to a youth show? You take pride in what you did, win or lose?

I believe that that is exactly the lesson that should be learnt/taught. Kids should learn to be proud of what they showed, even if they placed last and knew they deserved it. They should learn to work harder to achive higher. They should learn to win gracefully and lose gracefully. Trust me, I spent a lot of years placing last before anyone ever took me seriously.  

I completely agree with you that slick shows or wet shows won't change who's winning. But it might make that first time showman a little less nervous since he's never fitted a leg in his life. I've always said, if you can't handle the politics and don't like the rules, maybe you shouldn't be in the showring. Here is a link to a story I wrote in the summer of 2011, it might help you understand why I feel so strongly the way I do. http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=35058.0

I enjoyed your essay. And I think we are pretty much on the same page. You said it's not all about winning, and it's not. But the attitude that it is not about doing everything you can possible to prepare to win, within the rules,  is an extremely dangerous one to carry into adult life. Do you also believe that you shouldn't hire a tuttor to help get your grades up in order to get a scholarship? How about buying an on line course to help you study for your college entrance exam? Do all that on your own and just "live with " where ever the chips may fall? After school do you think you should hire a professional resume' writer to help you get a job or just do the best you can until you get the purple? And that "pride" you refer to as such a wonderful emotion, feeling, whatever...........there's a reason it's referred to as one of the seven deadly sins. When you get a little older you will learn that with that pride, if you ad a dollar to it, or maybe where you are a "loon", you'll be able to buy a soda, or pop, or what ever they call it there.

And I am happy for you that you did well at your show. You deserve all of the good things anyone could say for your achievement and work ethic. But your attitude that  "The kids that enjoy working with the cattle will stick to it unitl they are winning purple. The kids who quit probably were never really into it that much anyway" is extremely poor and dangerous to the industry. If you don't cultivate new people into the industry it will die. These people who are not so "into it" in the beginning WOULD be if they had some success. No industry, activity, sport, is ONLY for those who are so into it from the beginning that they will endure last place or sitting on the bench just so that they can participate. I am guessing that you are really into this cattle showing and have been since you were much younger. And probably hang around with those that have similar attitudes and interests. But the world is much larger. Everyone isn't like you. MOST young people search to find their "place" somewhere they "fit." That fit is determined by some measure of success, acceptance. If it's sports, the debate team, band, livestock, or drugs. MOST people gravitate to what they are successful at. I began showing at 10 years old with parents that didn't know anything more about show cattle than I did and a lazy 4-H leader. It was the fall of my junior year in college before I even won a class at ANY show, no matter how small. So like you, I was "into" it. It's very important to realize that everyone isn't like us. And if you want this industry to grow so that you can do it for a long time, we need to make sure that the rules that are applied do not make it more difficult for those who are already disadvantaged from the beginning. That's my point.

 

[KSanburg]

has it ever made a difference in winning or losing an argument?

employing professionals at anything seems like such a waste of money.



[/quote]

So we don't need professionals to build bridges, be doctors or make anything that requires an acute understanding of a specific item, h*ll even making beer? Well I think that statement is ridiculous! I don't know what you do for a living but the way I see it we are all professionals of something, showing cattle included, even if it's being a bum, which of course was a waste of money I just hope they didn't spend to much to become a bum.

Not that all professionals have a college degree but they have vast amounts of experience that rivals most text book learning. So I believe that the only way to become a professional fitter is by vast amounts of hands on experience working with show cattle, and I imagine if you asked most professional fitters if they were professional they would say "NO" because their learning never ends.

Waste of money I doubt it, spending a few days watching and learning from one will cut years off of starting from ground zero but until you roll up your sleves and get in the middle of it you aren't learning a thing.

 

[knabe]

Um it was a joke.

Your last sentence was my point exactly.

 

[mick rems]

So your saying that a kid that works his tail end off all summer on 6 head of his or hers  best calves and has them all haired up, has to fit everyone of them by him or herself even is the classes are back to back. Or he or she should be disqualified for having his or hers parents or other people ("professionals" as you call them) help fit them. Or maybe make it a slick show or wet them down and make sure he is not somehow cheating. I love how freddy 4hers and there parents love to jump to conclusions that a kid has done absolutely no work with a calf because his calves are being fit by somebody else.
It's a never ending argument.
The freddys hate getting beat....

Does this happen at the county fair level?  I am not talking about jackpot shows.  My kid had to get 4 head ready at his county fair and he figured out a way to do it with help from one other kid.  He had to use some time management, networking, and logistics to make it work.  Maybe don't take more than you can handle to the show.  Time and resource management plays a part of it too and is part of the learning aspect of the project.

Thank you WAR. and GWYO sometimes its not possible to have another jr member help you. especially since if in the past couple of years someone has surpassed almost everyone else at their county show and most of the people either hate that person or are busy enough showday morning with their own animals, and that said person is lucky enough to have a friend that they can trust at the halter of one of their animals in a champion drive or a cow calf pair class. i am the best fitter as a jr in our county and there may only be a couple of kids i would even let touch my animals much less fit, sorry not happening. this year i had 4 animals that i showed and an additional calf that was there as a for sale display calf. so 5 animals. i got up between 330 and 430 everymorning of fair. so i would be off the washrack before anyone even got there. my big bred and owned all white mainetainer heifer had really bad diarhea and i didnt have waiting for a vet to get there accounted into timing for fitting. i fit the 2 calves and my steer. but i was not able to even touch my big heifer this year for fitting due to showing. by the time the vet got done, the heifer ended up getting really dirty in the chute and ma rerinsed her, blew her out, and fit her while i was showing the open show calf. i had about 5 minutes to do a couple of fixes before taking her in the ring. it would not have been an option to have another jr fit her, so yes my mom fit her, which to be honest i was a touch worried about, but she did alright, heifer still won the show.

now on terms of a fit job does not always win a show. this year my steer and another steer were in the running for winning the class and taking second in the class. and then champion steer and reserve. i have worked with the kid (kip) in the past, i clipped and fit his animals for state fair the past two years. kip works pretty hard at home, him and his ma still havent been able to train the hair perfectly but thats minor, kip is a freshman this year, so still somewhat young, but they do wash, and brush, and blow their steers/ market heifers. they also had decent hair length on the legs so nice for fitting and boning out. im not sure how much money they spent on that steer, they got him from the same people as they always have, every year the breeder comes up to our fair and stands behind the chute telling kip exactly what to do and how to do it, kip does learn how to fit, and its not as neccessary anymore, its also not against the rules, ej just can't touch the animal. my steer this year had quite a bit of hair that i had perfectly trained. and i fit the steer. i also fed him pre bagged this year, and i spent 2500 on him, and got him out of state.

kips steer weighed 1340 and mine was 1310, which i weighed my steer completely empty. the steers in comparison were the exact same width, both deep bodied with rib shape and not wasty, my steer had a touch more shape to his ribs, kips was just a touch flatter ribbed. both about the same length and width across the top. same finish. my steer was sounder and straighter across the top, and flashier in a lot of people eyes, with his socks, and prettyness. however the judge found about an inch of extra length in kips steer. and placed him top, 15 minutes of my steer and kips steer standing out there after the judge plased the other 5 in the class. the steers also ende up yielding and quality grading about the same and had a difference of about 20 lbs in actual carcass weight on the rail. in the end in the sale the prices for the steers would not have changed at all if it was reversed. i would have still gotten the same amount of money, as would have kip, names do play a part in a lot of things.

so NO the fit job, and money doesnt always win. the judge found that one inch of length. and placed him first. most judges would have switched steer when they were that close, and wasted less. time so ig it proves. that depending on the judge which steer they will pick.

also i didn't mind losing to a steer that i clipped for state fair. the kid deserved the win as much as i did. and the reason why i spend more money across the board is because i go to other big shows, and i want to compete, if anything place center of my class at state fair, or the jackpot shows, and junior nationals. that steer had a lot of awards to his name, a lot of miles in a trailer, and a lot of times loading and unloading into and from a trailer at the side of my white heifer. he won his class at maine junior nationals. and was reserve maine steer at a june show in wisconsin. he also placed center of his class at badger kick off and at state fair. state fair was a tough class. colton sullivan and paige janke were both in that class. i could also spend extra money on the steer as i was showing a bred and owned heifer, as i will be next year.  Ghost has beaten out some high dollar heifers. so money isn't always everything.

i won't lie i've used proffesionals, clippers and fitters. so what. many of us can do it ourselves but at some levels we don't want to or we know that the pro will do a better job at clipping the animal, and at some levels a one place higher placing is the difference between winning a class and not winning a class. and will theres premiums and awards when you win vs. not winning. and if the animal just need s that touch of a push by a good clip job, so be it.

 

[ba]

So your saying that a kid that works his tail end off all summer on 6 head of his or hers  best calves and has them all haired up, has to fit everyone of them by him or herself even is the classes are back to back. Or he or she should be disqualified for having his or hers parents or other people ("professionals" as you call them) help fit them. Or maybe make it a slick show or wet them down and make sure he is not somehow cheating. I love how freddy 4hers and there parents love to jump to conclusions that a kid has done absolutely no work with a calf because his calves are being fit by somebody else.
It's a never ending argument.
The freddys hate getting beat....

Does this happen at the county fair level?  I am not talking about jackpot shows.  My kid had to get 4 head ready at his county fair and he figured out a way to do it with help from one other kid.  He had to use some time management, networking, and logistics to make it work.  Maybe don't take more than you can handle to the show.  Time and resource management plays a part of it too and is part of the learning aspect of the project.

Thank you WAR. and GWYO sometimes its not possible to have another jr member help you. especially since if in the past couple of years someone has surpassed almost everyone else at their county show and most of the people either hate that person or are busy enought showday morning with their own animals, and that said person is lucky enough to have a friend that they can trust at the halter of one of their animals in a champion drive or a cow calf pair class. at my county i have always shown 2 or more animals except for my first year showing when i was 12. that year i showed a june market heifer that came off of our farm, had a low power blower and not a lot of resources. i ended up winning the market heifer show and winning beginner showmanship. second year i showed a simple angus cross steer from down the road. had reserve carcass, but didnt make sale, the two year old cow i showed (blossom, the market heifer that we decided to keep) was reserve breeding female to a simmy heifer that was from a family that has always done well and was shown by the champion senior showman at 2012 hereford jr nationals. those first two years i was mentored by my club leader at the time.  i now own my own registered maine cattle. and show bred and owned heifers. i spend some money on my steer. and work my tail off in the barn, school, and my job. i show alongside the Ash family, they have now switched to showing herefords, for the main reason of docility for the youngest. Amanda can now only show under open. at county fair i show open and jr show. last year i had a cow calf pair, a big breeding heifer, my steer and a market heifer. i bed pack fit all of them on my own. with my ma doing the switches and some tailheads. i am the best fitter as a jr in our county and there may only be a couple of kids i would even let touch my animals much less fit, sorry not happening. this year i had 4 animals that i showed and an additional calf that was there as a for sale display calf. so 5 animals. i got up between 330 and 430 everymorning of fair. so i would be off the washrack before anyone even got there. my big bred and owned all white mainetainer heifer had really bad diarhea and i didnt have waiting for a vet to get there accounted into timing for fitting. i fit the 2 calves and my steer. but i was not able to even touch my big heifer this year for fitting due to showing. by the time the vet got done, the heifer ended up getting really dirty in the chute and ma rerinsed her, blew her out, and fit her while i was showing the open show calf. i had about 5 minutes to do a couple of fixes before taking her in the ring. it would not have been an option to have another jr fit her, so yes my mom fit her, which to be honest i was a touch worried about, but she did alright, heifer still won the show.

now on terms of a fit job does not always win a show. this year my steer and another steer were in the running for winning the class and taking second in the class. and then champion steer and reserve. i have worked with the kid (kip) in the past, i clipped and fit his animals for state fair the past two years. kip works pretty hard at home, him and his ma still havent been able to train the hair perfectly but thats minor, kip is a freshman this year, so still somewhat young, but they do wash, and brush, and blow their steers/ market heifers. they also had decent hair length on the legs so nice for fitting and boning out. im not sure how much money they spent on that steer, they got him from the same people as they always have, every year the breeder comes up to our fair and stands behind the chute telling kip exactly what to do and how to do it, kip does learn how to fit, and its not as neccessary anymore, its also not against the rules, ej just can't touch the animal. my steer this year had quite a bit of hair that i had perfectly trained. and i fit the steer. i also fed him pre bagged this year, and i spent 2500 on him, and got him out of state.

kips steer weighed 1340 and mine was 1310, which i weighed my steer completely empty. the steers in comparison were the exact same width, both deep bodied with rib shape and not wasty, my steer had a touch more shape to his ribs, kips was just a touch flatter ribbed. both about the same length and width across the top. same finish. my steer was sounder and straighter across the top, and flashier in a lot of people eyes, with his socks, and prettyness. however the judge found about an inch of extra length in kips steer. and placed him top, 15 minutes of my steer and kips steer standing out there after the judge plased the other 5 in the class. the steers also ende up yielding and quality grading about the same and had a difference of about 20 lbs in actual carcass weight on the rail. in the end in the sale the prices for the steers would not have changed at all if it was reversed. i would have still gotten the same amount of money, as would have kip, names do play a part in a lot of things.

so NO the fit job, and money doesnt always win. the judge found that one inch of length. and placed him first. most judges would have switched steer when they were that close, and wasted less. time so ig it proves. that depending on the judge which steer they will pick.

also i didn't mind losing to a steer that i clipped for state fair. the kid deserved the win as much as i did. and the reason why i spend more money across the board is because i go to other big shows, and i want to compete, if anything place center of my class at state fair, or the jackpot shows, and junior nationals. that steer had a lot of awards to his name, a lot of miles in a trailer, and a lot of times loading and unloading into and from a trailer at the side of my white heifer. he won his class at maine junior nationals. and was reserve maine steer at a june show in wisconsin. he also placed center of his class at badger kick off and at state fair. state fair was a tough class. colton sullivan and paige janke were both in that class. i could also spend extra money on the steer as i was showing a bred and owned heifer, as i will be next year.  Ghost has beaten out some high dollar heifers. so money isn't always everything.

i won't lie i've used proffesionals, clippers and fitters. so what. many of us can do it ourselves but at some levels we don't want to or we know that the pro will do a better job at clipping the animal, and at some levels a one place higher placing is the difference between winning a class and not winning a class. and will theres premiums and awards when you win vs. not winning. and if the animal just need s that touch of a push by a good clip job, so be it.

i got up between 330 and 430 everymorning of fair. so i would be off the washrack before anyone even got there (thumbsup)                                                                                          That is the way it is done. In and out got your job done more room not getting crowded up and cattle are down before anyone else hits the door and you are out of their way.

 

[shortyjock89]

I was always taught to rinse, feed, dress, etc at the time when it will benefit your animal the most....earliest doesn't mean best. JMO

 

[cowman 52]

Caught in on this late, just wanted to drop in my 2cents worth,  if this deal is gonna be fair, then the 8 yr olds don't show against the 18 yr olds, it's that simple.
The ONLY reason there are slick shows, Houston and San Antonio didn't want the clippers, blowers, and fans anywhere around the barns, San Antonio does not have the facilities to support the electric draw, and Houston had to follow suit and Houston does not want the greif the electricity and all that a hair show entails.
  They yell fair at the top of their lungs but that don't make it so.

 

[Diamond G]

In our county youth fair the steer project is a terminal project and all steers are completely clipped, no fitting. Cant even use grooming products, wash and blow dry only. Only the kids are allowed to care for/groom/handle the animals at the fairgrounds. Our steer show seems to be pretty fair since Ive seen steers bought from market win against "show bred" ones. Wish I could say that about the beef breeding show, There is one girl who always wins EVERYTHING and Ive heard she doesnt even train the animals herself as required (family owns a show cattle business) The best anyone else can  hope for is reserve GC unliess there is a category shes not entered in

 

[okiegirl]

I was just discussing this thread with my 15 year old daughter and this was her reply. "Well that's crap, what about all the time I put in washing and working hair?"  Just because some other kid is lazy, I get penalized?  That's stupid."   

well said

 

[knabe]

  They yell fair at the top of their lungs but that don't make it so.

Above the fans and generators?

 

[shortyjock89]

In our county youth fair the steer project is a terminal project and all steers are completely clipped, no fitting. Cant even use grooming products, wash and blow dry only. Only the kids are allowed to care for/groom/handle the animals at the fairgrounds. Our steer show seems to be pretty fair since Ive seen steers bought from market win against "show bred" ones. Wish I could say that about the beef breeding show, There is one girl who always wins EVERYTHING and Ive heard she doesnt even train the animals herself as required (family owns a show cattle business) The best anyone else can  hope for is reserve GC unliess there is a category shes not entered in

Of course you've heard that. She wins.  The same things are said about lots of kids that win.  I would only show a steer in your county once, just to show that hard work makes a difference even on a slick calf. I think your county is full of a bunch of lazy whiners to be completely honest.  My 10 year old brother takes care of calves better than almost all 16-18 yr olds that I've seen. Know why? He wants it more.  If you don't want it, stop wasting your time.

 

[GoWyo]

Most shows are classified as youth or open.  Maybe they ought to be classified as pro and amateur.  Maybe could have a pro-am deal and match up a pro with an amateur through a draw.  Some of the more competitive youth shows look like an open show behind the scenes with only requirement is a kid on the lead -- that is fine, whatever - if we had a contender we would probably spring for a fitter. 

The county fair level though, is a different deal.  We have separate FFA and 4-H shows.  The FFA show takes only the top 10 animals for the sale and the 4-H show lets everyone sell.  A number of people from the community come through the fitting area and they watch the show and then they go back and make offers to kids on steers that didn't make the sale (usually giving a $200 to $500 dollars over market price).  The same folks that own businesses are the buyers at the FFA sale on Friday night and the 4-H sale on Saturday morning.  They are big supporters of the sale with some of them spending $20,000 to $30,000 on numerous animals that they then donate to Meals on Wheels and other charities..  They also want to see the kids and their projects because it is refreshing to see such a positive atmosphere and youth at their best.  County fair rules are that the kid can have other 4-H or FFA members help on their project, but not adults.  I think most of the buyers at our fair would be extremely dismayed to see mom and dad, overage siblings or unrelated professionals fitting on the kids' projects, and the sale would dry up to the point that having livestock projects would be pretty much pointless (lately selling steers for 2x market price, hogs 10x market price, lambs 10x market price).  I haven't heard much disagreement with this rule amongst the participants.  Yes it can be a little tough for the younger kids to fit and compete, but I have seen a few of the older kids step up and show some leadership helping out the younger kids with fitting even if they aren't sibs.  My observation is that the kids that get out a jackpot once or twice a month are (not surprisingly) generally the better fitters and showmen.  My main point is that the rule works for our local situation and is about as fair as any other rule, including no rules.