The use of EPD's in the show ring.

[Shady Lane]

I am looking to start open and friendly discussion regarding the use of EPD's in the selection and placing of purebred cattle in the showring.

  I understand that their are mixed feelings on the issue.


In my oppinion EPDS's should not be used when placing cattle in cattle shows for a variety of reasons, and I feel that placing live cattle should be done on the merit of the cattle put before the judge at that time and done completely on their merit from a phenotype standpoint.

My reasoning behind this is that EPD's are a projection, something based on the data collected and reported (and therefore the accuracy of that data as well as the honesty and integrity of which it was collected and reported with) where phenotype although subjective (IE what makes the "best" or "perfect" beef cow varries by oppinion) it is atleast tangible, you can see the quality of the cattle in the ring and select the cattle that show supperior structure performance traits breed character etc. etc.

      Furthermore, a virgin heifer calf for example has very little data to report beyond a birthweight, show cattle are typically managed in small contemporary groups and different management is applied to these cattle than the norm this can skew the numbers dramatically.

  In many instances, EPD's can change drastically over time as data is collected and reported to the  breed association, particularly cattle with low accuracy values.

Here's the kicker, the "Outcross" cattle will typically have lower accruracies because they have not been used extensively in most programs (hence the outcross) these will improve and the EPD's themselves will change as more data is reported if the cattle turn out to be popular with other breeders and see more widespread use.


Judge the cattle not the numbers.

 

[flacowman]

Completely agree.  And just try selling a bull to a large commercial cowman without epd's, it ain't happenin around here.  I believe that they are an excellent tool but that they are overused and too heavily relied upon

 

[firesweepranch]

In the Simmental breed, we have PTP shows (progress through performance). Cattle are weighed, hip measurements taken, and frame score assessed. Then, when classes are judged, the judge can use this information along with the EPD's to base decisions. Where I think it warrents consideration is if you have a close pair, and need help deciding how to place them. I have never seen a judge use only the EPD's as a basis of decision. But I have not been doing this very long either  ;D

 

[cbcr]

Agree wholeheartedly,  EPD's are only a tool to use when making breeding decisions. 

When it comes to the show ring, the animals should be judged on its own merits.

If you are purchasing animals, again I feel that first selection should be based of the looks and the merit of the animal.  After this process, then EPD's could be looked at in making a final decision if need be.

But as flacowman stated, it is very important to have EPD's when trying to sell bulls.  While it is true that many who are buying the bulls don't truely understand EPD's, they still want to see them.

 

[knabe]

i'll bet that birthdate epd is totally accurate.

 

[hereford]

I'm really 50/50 on the subject.

However I've never thought that feeling some back fat on a steer gives a judge accurate info on the steer's grade. A backfat to imf correlation of 0.45 isn't that high.

  :

 

[aj]

Knabe beat me to it. I don't think that Shorthorn epds are very accurate. If there is a two month fudge date on birth dates how could weaning and yearling data be worth looking at? The one shorthorn herd who tried to mess with the epds proved that the shorthorn epds are a joke. It is a tool. In some of the bigger breeds they would be more accurate.

 

[Freddy]

The Shorthorn breed isn't the only breed  fudging on their reports ,I think some of these big herds have hired computer guys to beat the system, ..
Other things done are putting cattle that have been sick, poor doers ,anytime you use  ratio's there going to be a top and bottom percent  no matter how good or bad that group of cattle are ...

 

[linnettejane]

a couple years ago, there was a judge at naile that was looking at epd's and current weights when he was going thru a class...i was actually in one of the classes...and he commented on the "unbelievable" rate of gain a particular animal had according to their weaning weight epd and current weight...that being said, he still picked it for first in class...

 

[Shady Lane]

One thing that sparked this thought process in my mind was listening to the reasons given by judges at some of the major shows, Louisville etc, and hearing over and over comments given on the EPD's of weanling heifer calves and how the judge wished to lower a BW EPD or raise a milk EPD, I'm thinking to myself "are you kidding me? it's a heifer calf, she has never had a chance to show how she is going to milk". While we can make some projections or assumptions in regards to her milk production using EPD's as a factor I don't believe that is the whole story by any means and the predictability is just not there, particularly with cattle with lower accuracies and from smaller contemporary groups etc.

Realising that there are some birth weight issues associated with many of the popular lines used to produce cattle with a show ring phenotype, I believe it is up to us as breeders and individual producers to select the cattle that best fit our programs and what performance traits are acceptable and will work for us.

In my opinion a judge is put in a ring to select cattle based on the tangible elements that can be seen, IE phenotype, individual performance etc and not get into the "Heresy" of the EPD thing.

If after 10 calves that heifer calf has consistently produced low BW calves andher BW EPD has gone from +5 to -2 (or vice-versa) should they go and ask for the purple banner that they were denied because of the data collected at the time?  : (Sarcasm of course)

The use of EPD's in my mind can actually help prevent bringing outcross genetics to the spotlight because they are just that, outcross's that have not been widely used and therefore have lower accuracies and hence have skewed EPD values.

Judge the cattle not the numbers.

 

[MCC]

To me EPD's are like wrapped Christmas presents. You might think you know whats in the box but you can't be sure until you open it up. I think in the show ring you should be judging the animal and not trying to guess what's under the paper. Heck, I've seen some judges that have a hard enough time if there is more than four in a class without adding a bunch of paper work to confuse them more.

 

[nobody]

i'll bet that birthdate epd is totally accurate.

You know it.... (lol)

 

[knabe]

anytime you use  ratio's there going to be a top and bottom percent  no matter how good or bad that group of cattle are ...

no breed association has the guts to let membership see if data fits a normal distribution.

 

[sue]

Let's toss OUt!! I think you should get a refund from the Associations- just forget  inputting all the data and we could stamp your paper "show heifer" or show animal. The $30 bucks you could save can be used on 3 cans of adhesive??

Imagine the ink and extra paper we waste posting these numbers in Show programs?  The show would go alot faster if we didnt have to look at the data too??

Really- I have to believe the breed and or breeders want the young people (JR's) to see the value in record keeping, epds and breeding decisions.  EPD's are just a  part of selecting sound, productive animals to breed. It's a tool.

 

[kanshow]

I was at a show one time and ended up standing next to the parent of the kid that placed last.    His sibling placed next to last.    IMO, that is where those calves needed to be - based on my visual observation of phenotype.  This parent was all upset and was claiming the calves got beat by EPDs because they breed for balanced EPDs and some of those at the top of the class were breeding for unbelievable weaning weights and yearling weights..    So if you want - its another excuse for why you don't win! LOL!

I've been to PTP shows and like Firesweep says..  they may look at EPDs if it comes down to a decision between a close pair but I've never seen them sort according to EPD first.  If you want to play devils advocate - maybe only cattle with EPDs in the top 25%  should be allowed to compete at shows.    Never happen, nor should it.

 

[Okotoks]

We showed a bull in Denver once and his EPD's were the worst of the three in the class. Twelve years later all three bulls have EPD's with high accuracies and the bull we showed now has EPD's that are the best in every category. I don't know if the judge gave any weight to the the EPD's that day but if he did it would have been on info that was of little use in the long run.

 

[JoeBnTN]

There was a great thread a couple of years ago on the same subject. Rather than go through the discussion again, I would suggest that you might go read through it -- it had something like 60-70 comments if I recall.  Lots of good discussion that hits  on the topics in this year's version.  Let me know if you can't find it.

 

[JTM]

I think that we should be using EPD's to aid in the selection of cattle in a show. I also believe that a lot of Shorthorn epds are inaccurate and I have also been beaten by the numbers in a show.  When you have an animal that has an inaccurate birth date and is two months older than the other, and it came out at 120 lbs as an ET calf going up against a JPJ heifer who was actually born in April and actually had a BW of 75 lbs, how do you accurately judge those two animals without bringing EPD's into the mix? Weight per day of age may be 4.8 compared to 2.8. Which one is really accurate? I think we need to go in the direction of pushing the use of EPDs and the accuracy of our performance numbers. I think this is the best way to continue to improve a breed through the show ring and teach future generations how to be good cattlemen and cattlewomen. IMO.

 

[linnettejane]

I think that we should be using EPD's to aid in the selection of cattle in a show. I also believe that a lot of Shorthorn epds are inaccurate and I have also been beaten by the numbers in a show.  When you have an animal that has an inaccurate birth date and is two months older than the other, and it came out at 120 lbs as an ET calf going up against a JPJ heifer who was actually born in April and actually had a BW of 75 lbs, how do you accurately judge those two animals without bringing EPD's into the mix? Weight per day of age may be 4.8 compared to 2.8. Which one is really accurate? I think we need to go in the direction of pushing the use of EPDs and the accuracy of our performance numbers. I think this is the best way to continue to improve a breed through the show ring and teach future generations how to be good cattlemen and cattlewomen. IMO.

i wish this had a "like" button, cause i'd click it 6,321,589 times! 

 

[aj]

Also I'm not sure that there are good and bad epds.....if the epds are accurate. I personally like the moderate yearling and lower milk epds cause this fits my enviroment. I don't think maxing out the epds makes sense. They make harder keeping larger cows. jmo