TJ and other Lowline breeders.

[MYT Farms]

So, you're saying that the Lowline portion of the breed is "more pure" than the "regular size" Angus?? ???

 

[TJ]

Actually, I was simply giving you a "friendly" hard time about your avatar & I was going to leave it at that.     I'm bad about sometimes about opening my mouth (typing on the keyboard) & I apologize if it wasn't in good taste.  Most Angus breeders & long time cattle people would have taken it as a joke.  Which I intended for it to be.  I hope it did not upset you, because that wasn't my intention at all.  But what I said does have merit... If it didn't have merit & if I didn't personally believe it, I would have never posted it.  I will not post anything that I don't believe strongly.  People may disagree with me & that is OK.  I'm pretty confident in my beliefs.  However, just because I do something doesn't mean that something different wont work for somebody else & vice versa. 

To answer your question... I can name a few Angus breeders who would agree 110% with me.   Matter of fact, some of the Angus people are A WHOLE LOT MORE OUTSPOKEN on the subject than I ever thought about being, which I guess is why I don't mind making jokes about the subject.  Going 1 step further, people around here that aren't even Lowline Angus breeders, even some Angus breeders (as mentioned above) constantly joke that the Lowlines are the only pure 100% Angus.  If Angus people themselves weren't saying it, I probably wouldn't have said a thing about it. 

I'm not going to go round & round about this because it's pretty common knowledge & like I said, it's something that at least "some" Angus breeders will admit to & joke about.  A former chi breeder/good friend of ours can tell some pretty interesting stories about this topic too... I've heard others tell stories too... Like I said... those stories/rumors are pretty common knowledge. 

40 years ago, Angus cows (females, not bulls) did not weigh 2,200-2,300 lbs. like 1 papered Angus cow, that my friend currently owns, that was born in the 1990's.  That Angus cow looks just like the Chi-Angus cow that I bought when I was in high school, only the Angus is bigger & has a longer head!!  How did they get that big so fast?  ... Stories about Pine Drive Big Sky ... stories about registered "papered" Angus that had horns... Etc.  But, the same could be said about a lot of breeds.  Lot of breeds!!  I think that my registered Red Angus females are part Shorthorn... I may be wrong, but it looks that way to me.

Could some of the Lowline Angus not be 100% pure Angus?  Of course... but, it's pretty likely that they are & if they aren't they are the closest to 100%!  Like their American Angus cousin's, Lowlines have pedigrees that can be traced all the way back to the 1600's in Scotland.  Unlike their American cousin's, Lowlines were in a "closed herd", in Australia, at a Govt sponsored research station, from around the 1920's-1940's (when the herd became closed) until the 1990's, so they were not "influenced" by the continentals.  Unlike their American Angus cousin's, full blood Lowlines must be parent verified by dna before any fullblood calf can be registered.  What would happen if American Angus were all DNA tested to see where they came from?  I bet that would be pretty interesting.  And which animals look more like the 1920's-1940's show Angus pictures?  Lowline Angus or American Angus?  Why do the American Angus look so different?   ??? 

With all that said, iin the words of the late Charlie Baird (R.I.P. - my neighbor & real good horse & cattle breeder friend)... "It really doesn't matter what it is or what it looks like, as long as it has papers, it's what the papers say it is."   Very sad, but very true.   

Again, I hope that I didn't come off sounding the wrong way... I was just having some fun, but stating what I thought was the obvious.  I do stand totally by what I said, but I didn't intend for it to be "mean spirited" at all.  I honestly thought that you would agree with me!  Most probably agree with me 100%, but obviously they all were smart enough to keep their mouths shut!  I can see that I probably should've too.  But, I'm human & I make plenty of mistakes.  Sorry... and I hope no hard feelings.  I just saw the "100% pure", etc., reacted & ran with it, without thinking.   And that isn't ever a good thing to do. 

 

[knabe]

maybe angus are more open minded than lowlines.  the other breeds have so much to offer.  from top to bottom, from pedigree to marketing, angus are much more diverse than lowlines.

;D

 

[MYT Farms]

Ah, TJ, no sorta hard feelings at all!!! BTW, I hate "American Angus". Them big 'uns ain't my taste. Mine I doubt weight more'n 1200 pounds at the very, very most. And they're only about a frame 3-5. I was just wonderin'. Now, I know the bigger breeders out there actually have sold my dad some registered Black Angus that were red and/or had horns.  : We try not to reflect on those. I really like the Lowlines, and have no doubt that across the entire breed, they are more pure in general. BTW, are lowlines or lowline X's eligible for CAB? I imagine so.....

 

[TJ]

maybe angus are more open minded than lowlines.  the other breeds have so much to offer.  from top to bottom, from pedigree to marketing, angus are much more diverse than lowlines.

;D

Well, we do have the percentage Lowline thing...  ;D

 

[TJ]

Ah, TJ, no sorta hard feelings at all!!! BTW, I hate "American Angus". Them big 'uns ain't my taste. Mine I doubt weight more'n 1200 pounds at the very, very most. And they're only about a frame 3-5. I was just wonderin'. Now, I know the bigger breeders out there actually have sold my dad some registered Black Angus that were red and/or had horns.  : We try not to reflect on those. I really like the Lowlines, and have no doubt that across the entire breed, they are more pure in general. BTW, are lowlines or lowline X's eligible for CAB? I imagine so.....

WHEW!!

Worst case scenario, I bet yours would easily be considered "purebreds" in any other breed (15/16 or higher).  The frame 3 - 5 bulls certainly could be 100%.       

RE CAB... Anything that is "black" can be certified Angus beef.  All it has to do is fit the specs.  My dad has sold black purebred Tarentaise to a packer who sold the meat as CAB!    CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

 

[CJC]

Please tell me the difference between an Angus and a Lowliner. I know that a Lowliner is Shorter. I know that back in the 40s, 50, or 60s that they where short. So how did this breed come about. Was it from years of in breeding are what?

 

[simtal]

  CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

said because your not one who capitalized on it

 

[TJ]

Please tell me the difference between an Angus and a Lowliner. I know that a Lowliner is Shorter. I know that back in the 40s, 50, or 60s that they where short. So how did this breed come about. Was it from years of in breeding are what?

Here you go... I cut & pasted this from a post that I made a long time ago on here...  

What are Lowline Angus?  

Lowline Angus are a small framed, black & polled breed of 100% Angus cattle that are the direct result of an Australian government research experiment.  The ancestry of Lowline Angus, can be traced all the way back to the eastern Scotland counties of Aberdeen & Angus, where the Angus breed was developed.  However, Lowline Angus, are not “today’s Angus”.   Lowline Angus originate from a herd that has been closed to outside animals since 1964, so they are very similar in size to the smaller sized Angus cattle that were common in the United States back in the 1940’s & 1950’s.  To insure that purity is maintained, both the American Lowline Registry, as well as, the Australian Lowline Cattle Association, require that all fullblood Lowline animals MUST have both parents verified by DNA testing before they can be registered.  

Where did they come from?

Back in 1929, the Trangie Research Centre established an Angus herd in an effort to provide high quality breeding stock for the Australian cattle industry.  The first seed stock were imported from the famous  Glencarnock Angus Herd in Manitoba, Canada.  The animals originally imported, consisted of two bulls, Glencarnock Revolution and Brave Edward Glencarnock, 1 cow/calf pair, and 17 heifers and they became the foundation of the Trangie Angus herd.  Both bulls were from the Blackcap Revolution family, which produced several champions at the Chicago International Show, back in the 1920's.

The Trangie herd enjoyed lots of success at the Royal Sydney Show with their Blackcap Revolution genetics, so they decided to import another cow, Blackcap Bixie 2nd, who was carrying Glencarnock Blackcap Eric, which was later named the Grand Champion bull at Sydney in 1933.  After that, only a very limited amount of bulls & females were imported from Scotland, Canada & the United States.  In 1963, the emphasis of the Trangie herd shifted toward research, so the herd was closed to outside animals forever in 1964.      

Then in the early 1970’s, the Trangie researchers began the experiment on 3 different groups of cattle within the herd.  Those 3 groups consisted of...

The “High Line”...     These were the largest/highest growth rate cattle within the herd.
The “Low Line”...     These were the smallest /lowest growth rate cattle within the herd.
The “Control Line”... These were the average size & growth rate cattle within the herd.

After 15 years of selective breeding, the “Low Line” herd stabilized at 30% smaller than the “High Line cattle“.  The 30% smaller size allowed the “Low Lines” to be stocked at higher rates than larger cattle, which meant that more total lbs. of beef, could be produced per acre.  The results of the experiment, led progressive Australian’s to purchase the entire “Low Line” herd in 1992 & 1993, which led them to form the Australian Lowline Cattle Association right after the first group of Lowlines were purchased in 1992.    

(Note - I am thankful to numerous friends within the Lowline breed, both in the US & Australia, for providing me much of that information over the last several years.)

 

[shortyjock89]

Lowlines ARE Angus, but were developed in Australia as part of an experiment on Feed Conversion based on Size.  All the small animals in the test group were bred to each other (the precursors to Lowlines), the tallest were bred to each other, and then there was a control group that bred small to large and equal sized animals together arbitrarily.  The experiment continued for many years, and when the Triange herd (the test herd) dispersed, there was a group of breeders that bought all of the Lowlines and thus the Australian Lowline Association was born.  

So, in short, Lowlines DO have a smaller gene pool than Standard Angus, and there has been a bit of inbreeding, but Lowlines are VERY pure of blood and are in fact, as pure an Angus as could be found today.

 

[TJ]

  CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

said because your not one who capitalized on it

And how do you know that I do not or that I have not capitalized on it?  Please explain?  I think that you are very mistaken.  

CAB means "black"... period.  Doesn't matter if it's 1/ 528 Angus... or if it's 100% black welch... if it meets the specs, it's CAB.  

 

[TJ]

Lowlines ARE Angus, but were developed in Australia as part of an experiment on Feed Conversion based on Size.  All the small animals in the test group were bred to each other (the precursors to Lowlines), the tallest were bred to each other, and then there was a control group that bred small to large and equal sized animals together arbitrarily.  The experiment continued for many years, and when the Triange herd (the test herd) dispersed, there was a group of breeders that bought all of the Lowlines and thus the Australian Lowline Association was born.  

So, in short, Lowlines DO have a smaller gene pool than Standard Angus, and there has been a bit of inbreeding, but Lowlines are VERY pure of blood and are in fact, as pure an Angus as could be found today.

Absolutely.  Lowlines were linebred somewhat, because there was only a limited number of them.  And when they separated the herd into 3 groups, it got even tighter.  But, because of that, all the defects, including, but not limited to, dwarfism, got "bred out". 

However, the entire Murray Grey & Santa Gert. (or 1 of the eared breeds... foundation bull was named "Monkey") breeds are even tighter bred than the Lowlines ever thought about being.  Those 2 breeds "ALL" decend from 1 common ancestor!  Lowlines are not that quite that tight bred. 

Most of the bloodlines were the Angus genetics that were winning at Chicago & all the shows "back in the day", so the quality is linebred pretty tight too. Nothing wrong with linebreeding... actually, linebreeding improves consistency & uniformity.  And it will eliminate defects... because if there is a defect, it will show up. 

 

[MYT Farms]

  CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

said because your not one who capitalized on it

And how do you know that I do not or that I have not capitalized on it?  Please explain?  I think that you are very mistaken.  

CAB means "black"... period.  Doesn't matter if it's 1/ 528 Angus... or if it's 100% black welch... if it meets the specs, it's CAB.  

Well, I tend to sell mine at least 95% Angus or higher, not just black.  ;D But thanks for the history TJ. Say, what size calves does 'ol Doc throw? Small enough for first calf, moderate heifers?

 

[CJC]

I would like to thank yawl  for the T and L (teach and learn).

 

[shortyjock89]

You betcha.  If I end up keeping my heifer, she's getting bred to Doc.

 

[TJ]

  CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

said because your not one who capitalized on it

And how do you know that I do not or that I have not capitalized on it?  Please explain?  I think that you are very mistaken.  

CAB means "black"... period.  Doesn't matter if it's 1/ 528 Angus... or if it's 100% black welch... if it meets the specs, it's CAB.  

Well, I tend to sell mine at least 95% Angus or higher, not just black.  ;D But thanks for the history TJ. Say, what size calves does 'ol Doc throw? Small enough for first calf, moderate heifers?

I know that you do, and that is really the way it should be, but what do you think that packers do, especially the big packers?  

They have no way of knowing if it's Angus, black Simmental, black Gelbvieh, black Limo, black Maine, black Tarentaise, black Saler, or a black composite.  If it's black & if it meets the specs, they can & sometimes (probably as much as possible) sell it as CAB.  It happens & it happens a lot.    

 

[TJ]

  CAB means black, but really has little to do with Angus.  That's also very sad, but very true. 

said because your not one who capitalized on it

And how do you know that I do not or that I have not capitalized on it?  Please explain?  I think that you are very mistaken.  

CAB means "black"... period.  Doesn't matter if it's 1/ 528 Angus... or if it's 100% black welch... if it meets the specs, it's CAB.  

Well, I tend to sell mine at least 95% Angus or higher, not just black.  ;D But thanks for the history TJ. Say, what size calves does 'ol Doc throw? Small enough for first calf, moderate heifers?

Actual birth weight... 48 lbs. 

I've never had or heard of a 70 lb. or heavier 1/2 blood calf yet out of Doc.  Most 1/2's are in the 50's & 60's.  But, I suspect that an occasional one "could happen".  I've had some Doc fullbloods that only weighed 25-30 lbs., but they grew out well.  If a moderate heifer can't deliver a Doc calf... she needs to be sold, yesterday!!     

 

[MYT Farms]

OK, I'm convinced. I'll get on the horn with Kit. 

 

[TJ]

I would like to thank yawl  for the T and L (teach and learn).

Your welcome.  I hope that I didn't do too badly for me only 3 hours sleep last night... long story.  

 

[TJ]

OK, I'm convinced. I'll get on the horn with Kit. 

I'm biased towards Doc (obviously), but that Machine bull is pretty good too.  I think I've heard that he has some good "carcass characteristics".  He shouldn't produce the performance or frame that Doc will though.  I don't know what his birth weight is, but I suspect that he's a real "easy calver" too.   

Also, just a FYI, Kit's out of Doc semen right now & it may be later this spring before Kit has any.  He should have it before breeding season though.  PM me if you have questions or want details.