Training a cattle dog - HELP!!!

[Show Heifer]

I have got a 5  month old Aussie that I need help with. He is a neutered male. He has shown some natural talent of herding animals (cattle and sheep). When I go to move livestock from one pen to the next, he does move back and forth moving the stock away from me and toward the gate.
The problems are: Once his attention is one something (an animal, bird, turd, whatever) it takes either a bunch of yelling OR throwing a small clod at him to get his attention toward me! His other problem is while choring, or working around the animals WITHOUT MOVING THEM, he runs at them, and plays. I know it is just his game, but with cows and ewes starting to have little ones, its getting rough on them (even though they are used to it and rarely run away!)
Plus, he is a weanie. When a ewe gets after him (protecting their young) he runs right toward me! Which is ok with sheep, but will be kinda bad when a 1500 pound cow comes through me to get to him!!
So, any ideas?? Am I rushing him? He sits pretty well, but staying is out of the question. He just won't cooperate and when I scold him, he shrinks away.
HELP!!

 

[red]

(dog)
wow, Show Hef sounds like my blue heeler, Poolie. He is a pain sometimes & other times great. We got to a point where we shut him up when we feed the cows hay because he had to chase them out of the pen & caused one to slip & fall. Other times he's fine at keeping the cows from coming out of a gate. Also saved me from a bull once.
His attention span in zero. It's like "oh look a cow, oh wow theres a bird , oh a cow" goes back & forth.
Border Collie Guy is traning his dog maybe he can give us some tips. Or laughes, not sure which.
My dog is 6, so he's alost cause. Hope you can get yours trained sooner. Ijust know you have to work w/ them constantly.

Red

 

[DL]

What I was told a long long time ago (and many dogs ago!) when I started herding classes with a GSD and a Terv that they needed to have excellent obedience skillls prior totraining  them to work stock. I think it is hard to pay "proper" attention to a puppy when you are doing chores so he may be picking up bad habits  - dhould he be crated when you are doing chores? Is there anyone out in your neck of the woods that teaches herding? I have some names somewhere I can look for - also a couple of issues back in The Cattlemen was an article about moving stock with dogs - I think there is a "whisperer" out there! NOt much help but the thought is there (cow) DL

 

[deep]

Hey Show Heifer,
My experience with canines is not the herding group, however, the basics will be the same regardless of breed.  He is young so that can add to some of the distraction issues.  I would absolutely put him through, or teach it yourself, a basic obedience class.  He needs to learn sit, stay, heel, down, come.  He needs to be absolute with those commands before you ask more of him.  Hollering and yelling at him only tells him that you are not in control.  He needs his leader to be calm and confident, in order for him to respect and follow.  Another command that I advise with the basic obedience is the Leave It or Drop It command.  This command should come in handy around piles of cow poop !!  Holler if ya have a ?, but he first needs his "foundation" (basic obedience) before anything else.    Deep

(dog)

 

[red]

He needs his leader to be calm and confident, in order for him to respect and follow.

Deep, remember we're talking about Show Heifer here! Calm & in control?  (lol) I'm just curious what she calls the dog when she's mad?
Good suggestions though, some dogs are more naturals at it then others.
Red

 

[Show Heifer]

Oh Red, you know me too well. BUT, I really have kept my cool with Norm. Even when he got me rolled by a ewe, I just put him out of the pen and told him to sit and stay. He got the sit part, but not the stay part.  (dog)
And I assume I should have started this obeidence thing before this ??? 
He really like to please me (in the truck he snuggles as close as possible then lays his head backward so he can look at me!!) Good grief, now I sound like a parent with a spoiled kid!!
Anyway, any and all help is appreciated. I will work with the sit, stay, heel, etc. while at the house - do treats work when he is good, or punish when he isnt good? Which is best??
Oh and by the way: when I am mad I call him "Norman Kasowski" I have no idea why!

 

[DL]

Hey SH - I am big into positive reinforcement (with cattle and dogs - horse too) deep or I (or someone else too) may have a good basic obedience book or video that might help - Ill check - give Norm a kiss!  :-* IMHO he needs excellent off leash control and from a distance - it also helps with the herders to teach them silly things - spin (that is to the right) wind (to the left) back, crawl, in out, leap, sideways etc  - they get easily bored - if he likes a toy (and has a decent prey drive) he might work for the reqard of the toy....I have trained my Sunflower heifer with apple bits! (she doesn't leap) - over zero, less wind and sun, glorious sun...... (cow)DL

 

[cowz]

Hello Show Heifer!

Training a new pup is always a challenge.  The more time you spend with them the better.  I am a border collie person, but really admire the Aussies for how tough they are!
Funny this topic came up, I have been watching a cable show called the Dog Whisperer, with Ceaser Milan, a well known dog trainer.  I really agree with his mantra:  1.  Plenty of excercise.  2.  Firm discipline and expectations.  3.  Praise and rewards.  (in that order)

I will share what we do to start a pup.  It sounds like you already have some great advice.  We never let young dogs have the run of the place around livestock until they are trained.  This just leads to bad habits when they get bored, especially when their herding instinct is so strong.  We first teach them to sit, stay and lay down before we put them on cattle. 

We keep them on a collar with a long lead when we are training them outside.  We teach them to walk beside us when we are doing chores or moving cattle between pens.  We also ( this probably sounds silly) teach them no by making a deep "ugh ugh" noise, that we only make when they are doing something wrong.  This is much more effective and less tiresome than yelling.  After a while, they are just like kids, they tune the yelling out.

We never, ever, tie up a dog.  We keep a nice kennel run to keep them in when we are not home.  During normal times, they have to listen and behave or they go back in the kennel..I know it sounds mean...but they get to come into the house and play too, but outside around the cattle and horses, there is no play time.

One of the things I wish I could teach my young dog, that my old dog has mastered is "Go Hide".  This means when things are not going well and we have encountered an animal that cannot deal with the dog, the dogs goes to the porch or under the truck..  Oh, well, I am not the Dog Whisperer either!

 

[deep]

SH, I've always had good luck with my facial expressions and tone of voice for repremanding, not yelling though.  Treats are good for rewarding, but I also do not want the animal to mind me because he is getting a treat.  My goal is for the dog to trust and respect me as his leader.    There are a few things you can do to repremand, always being firm but gentle, similiar to how his canine mom would repremand him.  Curl your fingers and make the shape C with your fingers/hand.  Firmly but gently pop him around neck area.  This is similiar to mom dog biting pup on neck for unacceptable behavior.  I have biten dog on the muzzle for unacceptable behavior (alright Red, quit laughing !!).  It's hard for me to explain on computer.  I need the human and the dog present !!  Anyway..... think like a wolf and a canine and ya'll are the pack and you are the leader.  First and most important, in my opinion, is the basic obedience.  As DL mentioned and I should have made that plain in earlier post, off leash absolutely.  On leash first, then off leash.  But he needs to know that you are his leader, even before you begin obedience.

(dog)

 

[red]

Deep, I was eating crackers & spit them out I was laughing so hard.
I'm going to save all this information for my next dog or husband. you can't teach the old ones!!!
Red (just kidding about the next dog)

 

[deep]

Completely off dog topic... because incorrect spelling bugs me I've got to correct my mistake.  Reprimand is reprimand, not repremand.  Geez !!

(dog)

 

[cowz]

SH, I've always had good luck with my facial expressions and tone of voice for repremanding, not yelling though.  Treats are good for rewarding, but I also do not want the animal to mind me because he is getting a treat.  My goal is for the dog to trust and respect me as his leader.    There are a few things you can do to repremand, always being firm but gentle, similiar to how his canine mom would repremand him.  Curl your fingers and make the shape C with your fingers/hand.  Firmly but gently pop him around neck area.  This is similiar to mom dog biting pup on neck for unacceptable behavior.  I have biten dog on the muzzle for unacceptable behavior (alright Red, quit laughing !!).  It's hard for me to explain on computer.  I need the human and the dog present !!  Anyway..... think like a wolf and a canine and ya'll are the pack and you are the leader.  First and most important, in my opinion, is the basic obedience.  As DL mentioned and I should have made that plain in earlier post, off leash absolutely.  On leash first, then off leash.  But he needs to know that you are his leader, even before you begin obedience.

(dog)

Deep, I couldn't agree more about the fact that someone has to be the leader of the pack.  We trade off on who takes the dog with them, but we have an agreement that only one person gives the dog commands when doing some "work".  The other humans don't interfere.  Shows the dogs who is in charge at the present time.  (Also good for marriages )

 

[deep]

Hey Cowz,  I don't know about the marriage part...... always been too chicken to try that , but it sure works with a pack of dogs and humans !!!!

(dog)

 

[garybob]

Always remember, that to train a dog, you have to be smarter than a dog. Hence, my "cow dogs" are just tool box protectors and loyal companions.  ;D

 

[Show Heifer]

A HUGE thank you to everyone! I will try the basics on leash first, then off. And even though it will be inconvient, I will leash him when doing chores (doing sheep chores requires A LOT of climbing gates, etc). But if it will last a life time, it will be worth it.
Keep the ideas coming, always open to ideas!!! (clapping)

 

[DL]

Hey Show Heifer - had a couple of other thoughts as I was dragging my sorry butt thru the cold and snow!

Norm may not be able to distinguish when you want him to "work" and when he can play - garybobs ideas about tying him to ya when you are doing chores is a good one; it might also be useful to crate him when you can't supervise him (outside so he can watch) - dogs don't do grey well - they like black and white - clear distinctions.

I also use the (weird sound) eech eech  - I don't say no, I start with a low eech and if they don't respond it gets louder - they respond really well to this

I also teach a "settle" command - which basically means stop whatever you are doing and lay down/relax; like deep I teach a "leave it" but very gently with a soft dog - Norm sounds a little soft and probably very responsive to the tone of your voice

and the piece de resistance - the dragon lady version of Karen Pryors Don't Shoot the Dog...she was one of the original positive reinforcement clicker training kind of people - trained dolphins (may be harder to force a dolphin to do something than a cow?) ...any how I don't use a clicker (you have to have one and you have to be coordinated) but a word - and the word becomes the reward - ie you train the dog to understand that the word means good things (I can get into more depth later - or maybe actually find you  a real resource!)

OK so say you want Norm to sit - when he sits accidentally you give him a treat and say the word - pretty soon he gets the idea that if he sits (and you then introduce the word sit) he gets a goodie. That is the pure way of doing it. Most dog trainers don't wait for the behavior they "encourage it and regard.

You can use any word you want but you don't want it to be a common word like OK - everytiime you accidentally say OK the dog thinks you are talking to him! ;D  In obedience some people use the word "ready" because the first thing the judge says to you is "Are you ready" and you say "Ready " as you look at the dog

Anyhow - this so called clicker training is really fun, the dogs enjoy it, and you can see the little lightbulb go off when they finally get the concept, Sometimes they go thru their whole repertoire of tricks and things because they so want to please you - my Terv will spin, whirl, back, crawl, sit, down , thru, up, around in a wild variety of sequences until she gets it right - it helps to have a good sense of humor!

It also works for horses (there is actually a clicker book for horses that is pretty interesting) and cows - I haven't tried it on the barn cats, but I am not optimistic! Have fun, DL (cow)

 

[red]

I haven't tried it on the barn cats, but I am not optimistic! Have fun, DL 

DL, when you get your barn cats trained let me know. I'll send you King Killer Kitty to work with. I really think he has some herding abilities. He was nipping at my heels this morning trying to get me to move quicker to the kitchen for his treats.
Red (lol)

 

[garybob]

Any one with proven breeding programs for mousing abilities and the intelligence to stay out of warm enginges on cold days? Every good barn cat we've ever had met an early demise when I started the truck when chores were over.  Currently have one with only half a tail.

 

[red]

Any one with proven breeding programs for mousing abilities and the intelligence to stay out of warm enginges on cold days? Every good barn cat we've ever had met an early demise when I started the truck when chores were over.  Currently have one with only half a tail.

The farm's barn cats like to sleep on the top of the pickups. doesn't do much for their reputation here.
Funny about the half tail though!
Red

 

[cowz]

Here's an update on what "Trained" Cowdogs are worth at the Nebraska Cattlemen's Classic:

The 16th Annual Nebraska Cattlemen’s Classic kicked off the week with a Working Dogs Sale.  The standing-room-only crowd removed their hats for a moment of silence to honor the late auctioneer, Stanley Stout.  The auctioneer, Seth Weichaar, then began the sale with the Supreme Champion Working Dog, consigned by Gerald Henzler.  The Supreme Champion Dog sold for $2,800 to Mick Jameson of Minden, NE. 

Reserve Champion Working Dog, consigned by Ruby Starke sold for $1,800 to Mark Gall of Clarkson, NE.  4th Place Working Dog and Overall High-Selling Dog, consigned by Tim Gifford, sold for $3,100 to Barton Wherritt of Custer City, OK.  5th Place Working Dog, consigned by Owen Seamann sold for $1,750 to Neal Hansen of Denver, CO.  6th Place Working Dog, consigned by Reich Ranch, sold for $1,700 to Darren Stevenson of Cairo, NE.  7th Place Working Dog, consigned by Preston Neugebauer, sold for $2,000 to Tangy Bates.