What do you mean no commercial shorthorns?

[kfacres]

Vandridge...you are a hack for Jamie...the regulars on this board know this. Good luck with your learning disability also.

I know that you mean that as an insult but truly I have never been more honored.   <rock> To be a "hack" for someone who I truly respect is one of the nicest things anybody has ever said to me.  My respect for the whole Diamond family comes from the simple fact that 1) they make some very wise discussions on SP and 2) just look at the pics they post of their cattle...enough said 
You complain about the Canadian Shorthorn breeders  and the way they think all the time. However, they are making waves in the beef industry, and gaining popularity all the time. So yeah, I'll take my learning disability and jump on their bandwagon.   <party>
But maybe you've finally figured it out.    Everyone in Canada who has a shorthorn is related. (some have even infiltrated the States!!) Jamie is my cousin, Okotoks and JIT are my uncles, coyote is a brother, happy rock another brother, and in Australia I have another cousin, Jamie's sister thunderdownunder. We get together twice a year to play hockey and drink beer  <beer>

Your're right-- dropping a pebble in the ocean will make waves.. course those waves won't be noticed by anyone other than the dropper... but you're right-- they are waves...

Ya, you could say I like a Maine deal, colored in roan... 

 

[jaimiediamond]

I posted a bull that I thought was an example of why you would not condemn every animal of show lines I didn't say go use him; even if you wanted to he is out working in a commercial herd at this time.  Realistically speaking I posted a picture of said bull I got a bunch of replies trashing the bull which is fine to each their own but a educated cattle men would have seen that the photo was not of a mature bull merely a bull calf (aged 8 months).  Now if I posted pictures of him you would say he was too thin, or too fat or heaven knows what else no matter what he looks like in his photo both you and aj would full heartedly condemn him for one reason or another.  So the reality is my name is Jaimie I am working in a large commercial operation and my views never have changed regarding Shorthorns or their bloodlines.

Vandridge...you are a hack for Jamie...the regulars on this board know this. Good luck with your learning disability also.

As for the vanridge comment of aj's if vanridge is my hack I got a whole heck of a lot better deal than you did with Jody being your hack.

Jody you probably should review your previous posts regarding calving ease, the Shorthorn breed, the breeds problems ect you will find that you yoyo all over the place. As was posted earlier on this thread which I feel was really worth bringing back up.

no big mystery here folks, buy cattle from people who raise them the way you want to. If the working corrals are 6 feet high and made of drill stem don't expect to get away with anything less.
If your foundation or replacement stock comes from someone who feeds less than you would, who messes with their cattle less than you would and the cattle still work you will probably be happy
buying there.
However if you are buying something to win the Derby don't expect it to work on the hills, valleys and rocks.
    There are a lot of good places to shop and buy exactly what you are looking for if you know what you are looking for .
Most of the people with good cattle that work, don't spend a lot of time bashing other peoples cattle or programs and
would be more than happy to assist you in reaching your goals as a cattle producer.  hr

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Let's just say that pic is a bad example. For being 8 months on and obviously well fed from the picture he should have more of a crest on his neck. He just looks very feminine. Dig through your vast library of pictures and Im sure you can find a better example.

 

[aj]

I would challange anyone form 1st grade to 90 years old to glance at the picture on page one. I bet 85% of people would say he was a shorthorn show heifer. He's so clean sheathed you can't see a sheath. In this picture.....I still think it looks like a females head. So you put up a picture in front of god and everybody and someone makes a truthful comment..........it means you are bashing the breed? Wow.. You are a victim.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Let's just say that pic is a bad example. For being 8 months on and obviously well fed from the picture he should have more of a crest on his neck. He just looks very feminine. Dig through your vast library of pictures and Im sure you can find a better example.

I think I found a pretty good example maybe a poor picture but honestly speaking even if the bulls bloodlines don't float everyone's boat his calves fit the program. My experience with these lines is limited BUT this bull is leaving good steers and heifers. There were no calving ease issues this year in this large herd and this bull was one of fifty that was used heavily.  He is now turned out again in a large group. 

Once it was said the commercial guy knows best and I think that isn't quite accurate a commercial man knows what is best for their program but that opinion may not apply to another breeder. It is just like the purebred industry we need cattle that work for our goals, area, resources and time.

Wow.. You are a victim.

Actually I am not a victim I am someone who enjoys my cattle and my breed.  I am proud of my fellow breeders successes.  I revel in our Shorthorn breed's commercial success that is being attained by the Canadian Shorthorn Association.  To be a victim I need to be suffering and I most definitely am not suffering.  I think you misunderstand how victim should be used in the English language, perhaps even the real meaning of victim.

 

[Doc]

I would challange anyone form 1st grade to 90 years old to glance at the picture on page one. I bet 85% of people would say he was a shorthorn show heifer. He's so clean sheathed you can't see a sheath. In this picture.....I still think it looks like a females head. So you put up a picture in front of god and everybody and someone makes a truthful comment..........it means you are bashing the breed? Wow.. You are a victim.

I mean with the bright sun and white belly , the sheath may be a little hard to see, but you can. I would rather see a tight sheathed bull than a bull that has a sheath that is a dirt dragger picking up every burr and pigweed in the pasture.  

 

[kfacres]

/quote]

Wow.. You are a victim.

Actually I am not a victim I am someone who enjoys my cattle and my breed.  I am proud of my fellow breeders successes.  I revel in our Shorthorn breed's commercial success that is being attained by the Canadian Shorthorn Association.  To be a victim I need to be suffering and I most definitely am not suffering.   I think you misunderstand how victim should be used in the English language, perhaps even the real meaning of victim.

Cry wolf?

 

[J2F]

Please folks let's stay on topic. (angel) This was suppose to be a debate on why the general conception is that shorthorn is for showing not growing. I have recently started and am now expanding a very small shorthorn herd, I am consentrating on raising replacement heifers and hopfully a few for show and not so much on the true commercial side(selling my animals for meet). I feel the breed is very strong breed with a lot to offer to every aspect of beef cattle operations but that for the breed to grow it must be more acceptable to commercial cattlemen here in the states . I also believe in buy low and sell high and you if you chase fads you will never make it. Right now shorthorns in most American markets do get less money but I  do think this will change and I want to be a part of it.  I want to help make that change by educating others on the Shorthorn breed. I thought if I new more on why the stigma was on our great cattle I would better be prepared to answer any questions and negative comments as they where presented to me. So if anyone has anymore comments on the subject I would love to read them. I would love to hear from other breeds on why or why not shorthorns. You will be the people I will be trying to convince <cowboy>. 

PS. Jaimie, Like your blog. I hope to see more shorthorn people promote the breed the way you are.

 

[vanridge]

I agree that shorthorns have a place in the commercial industry. That is were we are, we have no purebred cattle. We breed with black angus and shorthorn. We find that the shorthorns are generally a lot quieter for handling. Our handling facilities are held up by baler twine and most of our fences are more of a visual barrier than an actual fence. We hope that by crossing angus and shorthorn we will get the best of both worlds.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have actually used some shorthorn awhile back in truth to see if I could make some club calves.  This was 8 years ago so I have been able to see the whole thing played out.  First you should know we ranch on shortgrass prairie, calve in may/june, and if at all possible make it the entire winter without any hay, just Loomix.  We are located in Northeast Wyoming so it's not like we have short easy winters.  For a cow to survive in this kind of production environment she needs to be sound, correct in her rib shape, and able to stay warm.  I have studied this closely and have noticed that the wider based, more massive, easier fleshing females seem to really fit the bill here.  The shorthorns we got were very pretty females for sure.  Maybe more birthweight but I didn't care because we didn't have to touch them. The problem was they wouldnt put on enough fat in the right places. Namely and even coat over the center of their body/ribs etc.  Again trying to be completely fair we didn't buy from some place that emulated these same practices, etc.  And we did have a few make it and we have some of their influence now.  Another thing that seemed to be a problem is they seemed to be very thin hided.  Sure the hair helped but apparently not enough.  I would love to have some if I could fix these things, oh that and the fact that they never have enough true muscle shape on the rearview.  Square is not heavy muscled. We run red angus/charolais cross with most of the charolais coming from HooDoo.  If there is a shorthorn breeder out there that runs cattle even close to hoodoo please let me know.

 

[vanridge]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have actually used some shorthorn awhile back in truth to see if I could make some club calves.  This was 8 years ago so I have been able to see the whole thing played out.  First you should know we ranch on shortgrass prairie, calve in may/june, and if at all possible make it the entire winter without any hay, just Loomix.  We are located in Northeast Wyoming so it's not like we have short easy winters.  For a cow to survive in this kind of production environment she needs to be sound, correct in her rib shape, and able to stay warm.  I have studied this closely and have noticed that the wider based, more massive, easier fleshing females seem to really fit the bill here.  The shorthorns we got were very pretty females for sure.  Maybe more birthweight but I didn't care because we didn't have to touch them. The problem was they wouldnt put on enough fat in the right places. Namely and even coat over the center of their body/ribs etc.  Again trying to be completely fair we didn't buy from some place that emulated these same practices, etc.  And we did have a few make it and we have some of their influence now.  Another thing that seemed to be a problem is they seemed to be very thin hided.  Sure the hair helped but apparently not enough.  I would love to have some if I could fix these things, oh that and the fact that they never have enough true muscle shape on the rearview.  Square is not heavy muscled. We run red angus/charolais cross with most of the charolais coming from HooDoo.  If there is a shorthorn breeder out there that runs cattle even close to hoodoo please let me know.

Have you ever looked at the Saskvalley program? They have a website...maybe they are more along the lines of what you are looking for...

It took us a bit to find a shorthorn that was thicker muscled and easier keeping but they are out there. We calve in february and we have calves this year that are truly thick. The steer in my avatar is one of them. You can literally put a dinner plate on his back and it will not fall off. Our conditions are not like yours though

 

[kfacres]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have actually used some shorthorn awhile back in truth to see if I could make some club calves.  This was 8 years ago so I have been able to see the whole thing played out.  First you should know we ranch on shortgrass prairie, calve in may/june, and if at all possible make it the entire winter without any hay, just Loomix.  We are located in Northeast Wyoming so it's not like we have short easy winters.  For a cow to survive in this kind of production environment she needs to be sound, correct in her rib shape, and able to stay warm.  I have studied this closely and have noticed that the wider based, more massive, easier fleshing females seem to really fit the bill here.  The shorthorns we got were very pretty females for sure.  Maybe more birthweight but I didn't care because we didn't have to touch them. The problem was they wouldnt put on enough fat in the right places. Namely and even coat over the center of their body/ribs etc.  Again trying to be completely fair we didn't buy from some place that emulated these same practices, etc.  And we did have a few make it and we have some of their influence now.  Another thing that seemed to be a problem is they seemed to be very thin hided.  Sure the hair helped but apparently not enough.  I would love to have some if I could fix these things, oh that and the fact that they never have enough true muscle shape on the rearview.  Square is not heavy muscled. We run red angus/charolais cross with most of the charolais coming from HooDoo.  If there is a shorthorn breeder out there that runs cattle even close to hoodoo please let me know.

Have you ever looked at the Saskvalley program? They have a website...maybe they are more along the lines of what you are looking for...

It took us a bit to find a shorthorn that was thicker muscled and easier keeping but they are out there. We calve in february and we have calves this year that are truly thick. The steer in my avatar is one of them. You can literally put a dinner plate on his back and it will not fall off. Our conditions are not like yours though

the steer in your avatar?  the staight legged, shallow flanked, low shouldered one?  That's the steer you're talking about? 

 

[vanridge]

: yup that would be the one, the crappy calf that will weigh 850 lbs at weaning, yup that's the one I'm talking about but hey nobody wants calves like that because lbs does not equal dollars. And just for the record the calf had just stood up and was just beginning to stretch but whatever. Anyhow, for those who raise commercial shorthorns here are 2 more examples of crossbreds we have at home. The red is a steer and the roan is a heifer. These pics were taken when they were 6-8 weeks old.

 

[vanridge]

oh and outspoken before you get your panties all in a knot, the cow is a commercial shorthorn that we bought as a heifer from a dairy/beef farmer. He uses the heavy milkers in his barn and the rest he uses in his beef herd. His herd consists of many colors and breeds. We bought it because it was affordable and we had to start somewhere. She has been bred angus and shorthorn and every time she's given us strong solid heifers. The feed they were eating this winter is a barley/millet silage. They only have access to this feed from  9-9:30 until 2:00 everyday. The rest of the time they ate from a straw bale.

 

[kfacres]

oh and outspoken before you get your panties all in a knot, the cow is a commercial shorthorn that we bought as a heifer from a dairy/beef farmer. He uses the heavy milkers in his barn and the rest he uses in his beef herd. His herd consists of many colors and breeds. We bought it because it was affordable and we had to start somewhere. She has been bred angus and shorthorn and every time she's given us strong solid heifers. The feed they were eating this winter is a barley/millet silage. They only have access to this feed from  9-9:30 until 2:00 everyday. The rest of the time they ate from a straw bale.

I have nothing wrong with a dairy/ beef cross---  actually do a little of that kind of promoting myself from time to time...  I'm also a sucker for all kinds of colors-- and our dairy herd at home shows... (clapping)

 

[JTM]

Please folks let's stay on topic. (angel) This was suppose to be a debate on why the general conception is that shorthorn is for showing not growing. I have recently started and am now expanding a very small shorthorn herd, I am consentrating on raising replacement heifers and hopfully a few for show and not so much on the true commercial side(selling my animals for meet). I feel the breed is very strong breed with a lot to offer to every aspect of beef cattle operations but that for the breed to grow it must be more acceptable to commercial cattlemen here in the states . I also believe in buy low and sell high and you if you chase fads you will never make it. Right now shorthorns in most American markets do get less money but I  do think this will change and I want to be a part of it.  I want to help make that change by educating others on the Shorthorn breed. I thought if I new more on why the stigma was on our great cattle I would better be prepared to answer any questions and negative comments as they where presented to me. So if anyone has anymore comments on the subject I would love to read them. I would love to hear from other breeds on why or why not shorthorns. You will be the people I will be trying to convince <cowboy>. 
PS. Jaimie, Like your blog. I hope to see more shorthorn people promote the breed the way you are.

J2F, thanks for starting this thread. I am also very passionate about Shorthorns and their commercial acceptance. You and I think a lot alike and you are also in Ohio. We will have to meet up sometime. Other than the personal attacks I have enjoyed reading all of the posts and chuckling at a lot of it. I think as Shorthorn breeders who believe in the commercial acceptance of the breed we need to continually talk to sale barn managers, feedlot operators, and local butcher shops in our area to continue to educate them about our reality with the Shorthorn breed. As Shorthorns, I believe we are the dark horses. We have several things that set us so far apart from the current "british" or "Angus" cattle and I'm talking about very positive things. As everyone knows on here, I breed both sides of the fence when it comes to Shorthorns. Although, I can say that we are trending more and more towards the commercial side because of the clear difference in performance. Also, we implemented the use of some purebred Maines when the TH thing came along. These are traditional maines with easy calving, good feet, good udders, maternal instinct, and they actually have positively influenced my Shorthorn show cattle for real world performance. So, in the end, I believe that personal selection is everything. Just like others said earlier, select what you like and think will work well in your environment and avoid those bloodlines that are known to give problems where you already have them.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have actually used some shorthorn awhile back in truth to see if I could make some club calves.  This was 8 years ago so I have been able to see the whole thing played out.  First you should know we ranch on shortgrass prairie, calve in may/june, and if at all possible make it the entire winter without any hay, just Loomix.  We are located in Northeast Wyoming so it's not like we have short easy winters.  For a cow to survive in this kind of production environment she needs to be sound, correct in her rib shape, and able to stay warm.  I have studied this closely and have noticed that the wider based, more massive, easier fleshing females seem to really fit the bill here.  The shorthorns we got were very pretty females for sure.  Maybe more birthweight but I didn't care because we didn't have to touch them. The problem was they wouldnt put on enough fat in the right places. Namely and even coat over the center of their body/ribs etc.  Again trying to be completely fair we didn't buy from some place that emulated these same practices, etc.  And we did have a few make it and we have some of their influence now.  Another thing that seemed to be a problem is they seemed to be very thin hided.  Sure the hair helped but apparently not enough.  I would love to have some if I could fix these things, oh that and the fact that they never have enough true muscle shape on the rearview.  Square is not heavy muscled. We run red angus/charolais cross with most of the charolais coming from HooDoo.  If there is a shorthorn breeder out there that runs cattle even close to hoodoo please let me know.

  look at y lazy y, dover, and warners

 

[garybob]

McMillan Ranch, Lewistown, MT......Haumont Ranch, Broken Bow, NE....A&T Cattle Co, Hay Springs, NE (and, they're way the heck out past Scotsbluff).....a few more names for you.

GB

 

[shortii]

I am fairly new to the cattle industry and have been building my herd of shorthorns for about 10 years now. I know that there is a lot that I still need to learn to improve my herd of cattle as well as my knowledge towards the industry. But the way I look at it is that if you are happy with what you are doing than run with it. I feel there is a market in the commercial industry for shorthorns and hopefully more people will catch on. I also believe shorthorns are a hell of a good show breed as well.

While reading this thread there were a lot of good debate and ideas. But of course the same people have chimed in with comments that were obviously meant to piss people off. Jody you being the worst of them all. I admit you do bring up some good points about 25% of the time, whereas the other 75% of the posts seem to be smart a** remarks to get a rise out of people. Even though I may not know as much as you towards livestock I feel I have a good judge of character. And what I see in you is a very jealous person that cant be happy for anybody but yourself. So my advise to you is to grow up. 

"One mustn't criticize other people on grounds where he can't stand perpendicular himself"
                                                                                                                                          Mark Twain                           

Think about this for a minute Jody