What do you think?

[simba]

The other day a friend and I were talking cows and we got on the topic of using old semen instead of newer genetics and she said something that I found interesting. She said "If a bull's really that good, no one should be using him in five years; everyone should be using one of his sons." I don't really know if I agree or disagree, so I figured it would make for a good conversation. So do you agree or disagree with my friend's statement and why?

 

[justintime]

I tend to agree with your friend who said this. I am always amazed by so called " good breeding sires" that never sire a son that is as good as, or breeds as good as their sire. If we are properly breeding cattle, we should be breeding for improvement in each generation. That said, this is not as easy as it sounds and what is good in one decade is not the same as what is good in another. For this reason, I do think there are some sires from the past who can offer improvement today. The qualities they had when they were alive were not recognized in that time, and I know of many excellent bulls that were long dead before they received any appreciation for what they offered the beef industry. One of the biggest issues I have with people who are searching for old genetics, is that they " assume" if the semen is old, it must be good. There are lots and lots of bulls from the past who were not good then .... and they are not good now. There are a few others that offer some traits that we certainly can use today. I have used some old genetics especially in my ET program but I have tried to be very careful to use these sires on the females that I think they will work the best with. I have a pretty decent bull calf in my bull pen right now, that is sired by a bull born in 1966. This calf had the lowest BW in the 2013 calf crop at 68 lbs and he has developed very well. He may have some traits that will prove to be worthwhile.
In a perfect breeding situation I believe a great breeding sire should have sons to take his place in a very few years. Hopefully they will breed better or at least as good as the sire did. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen as often as one would think.

 

[knabe]

This is poppycock.

Traits are offset.  Breeding has been serendipity for centuries and nothing i've seen indicates otherwise. 

If breeding were simple, leroy's sons would be outdoing him but they dont, hence my continued insistence that he be line bred to fix his traits. X-bar got a good one.  Hopefully his judgement in cows is just as good. Mostly, a good animal needs to be linebred to essentially create a breed.

 

[cbcr]

Sometimes using bulls from the past becomes important.  Sometimes a bull does not produce a son to take his place but he does an excellent job of producing females that can produce outstanding sons.  In that case in order to get younger females you have to breed for them.

It seems that some bulls are better at producing bulls or females but sometimes not both.

 

[ferkj]

Sometimes using bulls from the past becomes important.  Sometimes a bull does not produce a son to take his place but he does an excellent job of producing females that can produce outstanding sons.  In that case in order to get younger females you have to breed for them.

It seems that some bulls are better at producing bulls or females but sometimes not both.

Meyer 734 is a great example.  While his sons have certainly been adequate and acceptable, none of them have stepped up and taken his place.  The daughters on the otherhand have made many a cattleman a good herd base and nice chunk of change.

 

[RyanChandler]

This is poppycock.

Traits are offset.  Breeding has been serendipity for centuries and nothing i've seen indicates otherwise. 

If breeding were simple, leroy's sons would be outdoing him but they dont, hence my continued insistence that he be line bred to fix his traits. X-bar got a good one.  Hopefully his judgement in cows is just as good. Mostly, a good animal needs to be linebred to essentially create a breed.

While, true, traits are offset, I feel the mark of a truly superior sire comes from his ability to not only replicate himself, but produce superior offspring; I feel like a bull's value should be determined by the likeness of the progeny- hence my disdain towards crossbred bulls. 

I also think its unfair to say none of Leroy's sons are/could be outdoing him.  Now I don't know that they are (yet  but I do know none have been promoted how JIT has promoted Leroy himself.  JIT has made a name for himself, and to many, his opinion is highly valued.  Any bull he gets behind will have a puncher's chance. 

Larissa,

I would say I absolutely agree with your friends statement.  If you feel there's no cow out there to further accentuate your bull's positives- then breed him back to his dam.  Dance with the one that brung ya.