What would you do and why?

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DL

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Recently I have gotten lots of calls that basically ask the same question - "I had my cow (or heifer) tested for PHA and just got the results that she is a carrier. Before I knew she was a carrier I bred her to a carrier bull - she is now 2 (or 5 or 7) months pregnant. What should I do??"
Your thoughts?
 

knabe

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i was in the same situation, except the test wasn't out yet.

i purchased a squeeze chute that my vet could do a c-section on.  luckily, she was free, and so was her heifer.  they were both from known carriers.

i think what i would do is find a way to take a hair sample of the calf via surgery as early as possible.  there must be some way to take the equivalent of amniotic fluid and test the developing fetus.

this must be cheaper than the video we saw earlier.

there is a component of what you should do.  hmmm.  i would advise the options and let them decide, gladly take their money for the choice they choose and display no malice for their blunder.  at this point, some people don't need to hear a speech, others need information.  they might be a customer for life if you can guide them in a direction that minimizes their losses and will look to you to give them choices on what to do rather than deciding for them.  i'm not in public relations, but have found recently that talking quieter when others are screaming is effective.  it took me about 40 years to learn that.  i retain an exemption on this method for politics, though i guess obama is proving me wrong on this as well.
 

chambero

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I'd look into aborting her.  How late in the game can you do that?  If my chances of hurting her doing that were greater than 25%, I'd take my chances.  Otherwise I'd terminate it as soon as possible.
 

red

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I need to think this one over a little more. Guess if I had a heifer that was of carrier lines I wouldn't take a chance of breeding her to a carrier bull. Better safe than sorry.

Red
 

shortyisqueen

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I would have done my research and this would have not happened. Unlike in Knabe's situation, the PHA test was not recently discovered in the last 2 or 5 or 7 months, so there is NO EXCUSE FOR THIS. If you insist on using a carrier bull, then you are responsible for the results. If you have not tested the female, you should be responsible enough to stay away from all known carrier lines until you are holding a PHA free test result in your hand.

Since the cow is bred, DL, is it possible to ultrasound her to find out if you have a PHA calf on your hands? In the early stages, I would definitely consider aborting the cow.
 

red

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Not DL or have I played her on TV but I believe you can't ulra-sound the fetus. I was wondering the same over a carrier heifer while I was waiting for the bull's status to be confirmed. went through some sweating until I knew 100%. He didn't have a carrier background but sometimes you just don't take a chance.

Red
 

xxcc

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I would tell them to make sure their vet is on board (ready for an emergency c-section), also have a bottle of Epinepherine and BoSe on hand.  I would make sure they were using a vet that is very practiced with caesarians.  I would not do it out the belly, but rather out the side.  Use the Epinepherine in the bottom side of the tail the same time you block the top side with Lidocaine.  Use both BoSe and Epinephrine on the calf, maybe some Supe B Complex on the calf as well.
 

AAOK

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  I feel the same here as in the previous post with the 10 month old heifer which accidentally was bred by the bull.  I would let nature take care of the situation.  We don't need to be aborting calves just because there is suspicion of a genetic defect, or especially if the calf is a different sire than we would have chosen.  The calf may be just fine, or both cow and calf might die.  I believe God's plan to always be perfect.  We learn best when we learn from our mistakes.
 

DL

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shortyisqueen said:
I would have done my research and this would have not happened. Unlike in Knabe's situation, the PHA test was not recently discovered in the last 2 or 5 or 7 months, so there is NO EXCUSE FOR THIS. If you insist on using a carrier bull, then you are responsible for the results. If you have not tested the female, you should be responsible enough to stay away from all known carrier lines until you are holding a PHA free test result in your hand.

Since the cow is bred, DL, is it possible to ultrasound her to find out if you have a PHA calf on your hands? In the early stages, I would definitely consider aborting the cow.

A rational person who thinks and plans ahead! I love it! Can't tell you how many people don't and then discover "oh no we may have a problem" ::) ::) ::)  Help me Rhonda.

to answer you question and kanshow's - the short answer is no, but there is a longer answer. knabe (as is often the case) has answered from another planet and while in theory an amniocentesis could be done it isn't done in practice (and frankly I can't see most people wanting to pay for it).

I know a vet who worked with a herd that had a lot (hundreds) of PHA calves - he said he got to the point where he could palpate them in the fall for spring calves and tell based on increased fluid and calves not ballotting like normal - but I suspect it might be a difficult call for those with less experience

Re ultrasound - wouldn't that be grand! but alas, the fluid is believed to accumulate after the 5th or 6th month and that is also when the calf falls way over the pelvis so from a physical standpoint it would be very difficult - add to that that you don't get clear pictures but rather contrast (ie you see the bones well but the contrast between fluid in the tissues and free fluid may not be that great - so the long answer to no too.
 

chambero

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DL - How long into a pregnancy can you safely abort one?  Do PHA calves growth occur dramatically in the last 60 days like a normal calf?
 

DL

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chambero said:
DL - How long into a pregnancy can you safely abort one?  Do PHA calves growth occur dramatically in the last 60 days like a normal calf?

This was actually a question I was asked to ponder yesterday - cow was 7 and a half months pregnant - I suspect that the fluid accumulated dramatically over the last couple of months, plus of course the calf is growing too. If your (generic owner of the cow) concern is primarily for the cow, then I think you can safely abort them anytime, although in late pregnancy it would be more like inducing them early.

Like shortyisqueen I would never put myself in this position, but I am amazed at the number of people who have. I think as a veterinarian you provide the information and the options and they make the decision hopefully based on rational and accurate information - it is sort of the proverbial sticky wicket
 

chambero

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My wife was induced for both of our children, and I remembered getting risks explained to me of not letting mother nature set the schedule.

For a "difficult" pregnancy, I didn't know if there was some point you were better off letting them go into labor on their own.  Of course with a PHA calf I guess it isn't coming out natural.  Never mind that question.

I've never induced a cow.  They only thing we've ever terminated is a possible early one after a neighbor's bull got in with my "AI cows".
 

Show Heifer

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Again education is the key so shortyisqueen is partially right. BUT.....has anyone bought a used vehicle? Did you ask EVERY question about that vehicle? Was it in a wreck? Crash? The seller says "no" but they know it was drove off a boat ramp and into a lake. It wasn't wrecked, it was flooded. So if you fail to ask THAT SPECIFIC question, they honestly answered and you are to blame for not asking SPECIFICALLY if it was flooded. (Yes I know this legally from experience) SO....if your not knowledgable enough to ask the RIGHT questions, your still SOL. And that is why when someone references a carrier bull and it is not mentioned, some of us feel the need to "educate" the person asking about the bull. Fair enough!

If I were ask this question: If she was less than 4 months, I would probably recommend aborting her. (Haven't beaten many odds lately, so probably wouldn't beat that one!) If she was over 5 months I would nervously stew over the advice to wait and then I would induce the heifer with the vet of my choice on call.

I would not abort anything that "just wasn't bred to the right bull"; such as neighbors bull, wrong straw, whatever. Sometimes those "mistakes" turn into the good ones!!!
 

garybob

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I'd hit her with the ol' Dexo/Lutalyse Combo. If you wait too long, it'll be too late. You have absolutely no way of knowing if the fetus is affected, or not, so, I'd not take any chances.
Consult a Veterinarian who works with Feeders and Backgrounders. They 'abort' a lot of 'em, and are often quite experienced.

GB
 
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