When sold is not really sold

Help Support Steer Planet:

Show Heifer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,221
I'm stealing this from BW, but wanted to know everyones thoughts...

You go to an auction and purchase a lot, the auctioneer says sold, announces your number and the auction continues. After the sale you are told the lot didn't sell due to a floor price, but the ringmen, auctioneer knew nothing of the floor.
The seller will not allow you to have the lot you purchased.

Who is legally right? Who is ethically and morally right (we all know that isn't always the same)? What would YOU do if you were the buyer? What would you do if you were the seller? What would you do if you were the sale management?
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
I read that too Show Hef. I'm trying to think back at the sale. There was a few time that there were some states of confusion.  ??? I guess my thought is that the sales manager needs to bite the bullet & make up the difference between the floor price & the buyer's bid. Too me it's a done deal when that gravel hits the bench. You couldn't back out when you went to settle up, that's for sure!!

Red
 

dutch pride

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
363
Location
SW Michigan
I guess it would depend on the fine print in the sale catalog. It should state something about it being an absolute auction with all items going to highest bidder unless stated otherwise. If it states that some items have a floor bid and must exceed that in order to sell, then it would be OK if it was a no sale. If nothing was stated, then I am not sure. Sale managment should have made this clear, I would think that would be one of the reasons a sale company is hired to run a sale. When selling at an auction, you as a seller are always taking a chance. If you do not want to take a chance, sell your cattle private treaty. On a related note; I know some breeders who will have a "ghost bidder" in the audience to bid up their entries if they feel they are going high enough. They may end up taking them back home but if they are bidding against only one other bidder then they are running the price up on their own animal. Is that OK? Ethical?

DLZ
 

Show Dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
5,127
Location
1 AU from a G2 yellow dwarf star
Let's say I have $5K to spend at an auction. I bid successfully on a lot for that 5k. I've spent my wad so now go to settle up after the sale and find out I don't have anything. So in effect there was 5K left on the table the entire sale (in theory). If it was my sale there would be one less auctioneer in the world.
 

kanshow

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
2,660
Location
Kansas
I think they should be obligated to announce that it didn't make the floor price.   I would be interested in knowing what the fine print in the catalog states but it just doesn't seem fair.  

Regarding the ghost bidder deal..  I don't really like it, I think it skews the numbers badly.   The high seller may not really be what you think....      I was at a reputable (or so I thought) show pig sale last spring.   When the sale was over, we still needed another pig  and we knew there were a couple that did no sale so I went to ask about those pigs.     When I was talking to the breeder - he pointed out 5 or 6 more pigs that didn't sell - but according to my sale catalog they all sold to a certain bidder #... ghost bidder - Oh yeah..    I'm not sure we'll be getting show pigs from that guy again.  

SD - That brings us to another point...  say you bid 3K on that animal and no one bids against you and the gavel goes down..  You think you've bought that animal.  Not to mention you've driven 500 miles to get there, taken 2 days off work, etc. 
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
great points! We've used buy-back bidders before but just to make sure we reach our floor price. It might not be the most ethical but it beats putting our faith in the sale manager. We make sure they drop out once the bidding is going.
I've been to sales where it's i'll bid up yours if you bid up mine. That's not right to me either. I think you'd be surprised after a sale how many actually sold for the prices they are listed at.
Thought- ideas? Good topic to start the new year off!!!

Red
 

kanshow

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
2,660
Location
Kansas
The buy back bid doesn't really bother me when it is just to meet the floor price .    What bothers me is when they use it to run the price up so that it appears like they went for the big money.      I suppose it really depends on which side of the fence you are on too.   I've been at sales where I know they never intended to sell a certain lot but just raced the price up to give a rosy picture.   
 

dutch pride

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
363
Location
SW Michigan
I have also heard of the "you buy mine and I'll buy your's" scenario.  Essentially cost both breeders nothing, trade similar cattle, and get to brag all over about their "$20,000, $30,000 and up" heifer raised by them. If your top animals sell for that much, then your next level must be worth more as well, right?

How does a newcomer to the business know the true value of any animal?

Do you see more of this at sales promoted by breeders themselves or at breed assn. sales?

DLZ
 

Show Heifer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,221
This was at the Breeders Classic according to my info.

When I go to an auction to BUY: I know what I am going to spend. I don't spend over that. If it is a ghost bidder then so be it...if I catch them running it, I hope they have a barn!!! But, I am ok with sellers protecting their stuff.
I don't like it when "I buy yours, you buy mine." That is just a game/joke to inflate egos.
I guess if your a new comer, take a trusted friend and have them scope out the auction while it is happening. MOST of the time, if you are observant, you can figure it out!

When I go to an auction as a seller, I trust NO ONE (surprising huh!). I have a bidder protecting my stuff in the stands. The sale management and auctioneer are just people, and have many irons in the fire. I will not leave it to them. It is MY responsibility to protect my lots.

And yes, from what I hear, this sale manager has had this problem before......and yet he is still in business (and no, I don't know him, nor had any business dealings with him, just hearsay!)
 

justintime

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
4,346
Location
Saskatchewan Canada
I am struggling here a little with the info given in the original thread. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it appears that teh auctioneer and ringmen did not kbnow about the floor price. Did the sales manager know about it or not? If the sales manager did not know, he can hardly be blamed totally for this happening. I am presuming that the animal would not have been knocked down to this particluar buyer( ie: the person who thought they had purchased it) if the sales manager knew there was a floor price. If this was the case, then I think the seller of the animal is the one to be held responsible. I have seen cases where the seller decided after the fact that they did not get a high enough price and they have iterally loaded their animal after the sale and taken it home. Personally, I would never do  business with this person again.
As far as " planting" a person in the seats to protect your interests, I see nothing wrong with this providing this person allows the acution process to establish the selling price, once the floor price you have set has been reached. I prefer to use the sales management and staff to do this for me, if it is required, as they are much more professional in it and I think they should know at all times what is happening. Personally, I would never use a plant in the stands for a production sale of my own. If the crowd at YOUR production sale even for one lot thinks you are using a plant to bid up your prices, I think your sale is doomed  and it will be far less successful than it could have been.
I understand that sometimes, you cannot rely on the auction process alone, but at the same time, this is an area that is not a good place for an amateur to practice.
 

ROAD WARRIOR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
1,865
Location
Iowa
An auction is a form of verbal contract - Unless otherwise stated in print or announced over the block, when the auctioneer says sold and announces that buyer number as purchaser it is in effect a legally binding contract. If the seller does not protest the sale at that time (publically announce the no sale) then the contract is considered binding and final. Apparently from what I can gather about this sale, the seller did not take care of business on his/her end and the sale should stand as sold through the ring. A similar incedent happened a few years ago at one of our national show and sale. A consignor not being happy with the price that the animal legitimatly brought through the sale ring loaded the "sold" animal before the sale was over and headed home leaving both the sale management and the new legal owner wondering what had happened. Needless to say that individual ruined their reputation in the breed and could have been in a lot of legal trouble (theft) if the buyer or sale manager had wanted to pursue it to that point. All over a few hundred dollars.
 

Show Dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
5,127
Location
1 AU from a G2 yellow dwarf star
kanshow said:
SD - That brings us to another point...  say you bid 3K on that animal and no one bids against you and the gavel goes down..   You think you've bought that animal.  Not to mention you've driven 500 miles to get there, taken 2 days off work, etc.   

Kanshow - Yeah I hate wasting my time and energy. And its things like this that I will decide not to do business with all involved. May seem harsh but if there is no action by the parties then I won't give them any attention in the future.

In most states on floor prices are to published or announced before and during the sale. Unless its same for every lot it should be announced for every lot. Lack of communication by the seller and manager is no excuse.
 

Doc

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
3,636
Location
Cottontown, Tennessee
Another angle on this is from another consignors aspect. Wonder if buyer was looking at one of your lots & that other lot. Buyer can only afford one lot & he decides after much soul searching & because the other lot comes up 1st in the sale order he goes for it. He gets the other lot bought (he thinks) , stays for rest of sale , see's your lot go in his price range but he's already spent his budget so he doesn't buy it. That one other bidder might have been all it took to make your lot bring another $250.00 or so. So now in roundabout way the buyer got gipped & you did also.
 

Jill

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
3,551
Location
Gardner, KS
I can tell you we have been on the buyers end of this deal, we will not ever do business with the farm again and have spent the last 10 years telling the story over and over again, still makes me mad every time I think about it!

As far as protection, I don't mind someone bidding against me until they get to a number you will sell for.  I HATE being run!!  We have been run enough times it would make your head spin, my husband has gotten very good at catching it and he quits bidding, it has gotten humorous to see them back track trying to cover a bid out of the air, I don't mind paying a fair price, but let's make sure it's fair.

I can tell you from the perspective of a newcomer, we were absolutely devastated to find out that what things sold for weren't necessarily what they sold for, when you advertise that said calf sold for 3,000 or 30,000 and I then find out it never really sold, I call it fraud and I don't care who is doing it, it is fraud.
 

JSchroeder

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
1,099
Location
San Antonio, Tx
I LOVE watching them get stuck.

A few years back we watching the end of a long sale, had room for one more heifer on the trailer, and more grass than we could use.  They didn't have a bidder on a heifer and we just rose our hand up to fill the trailer.  They claimed they got another bid but then we refused to bid again and he got stuck on his ghost bidder.  The auctioneer had the balls to go back to $100 LESS than what we had previously bid.

We just laughed at him shaking our heads while he pumped us for it.
 

AAOK

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
5,264
Location
Rogers, Ar

This Thread, and all these Replies are exactly why I NEVER purchased any Show Cattle at an Auction, and NEVER consigned any of our Show Calves or Cows/Bulls to an Auction.  I am continually amazed why people will deal with all the crap associated with Auction Sales. 

I'm not trying to convice anyone that all private treaty deals are on the up-and-up, but there sure is not near the possibility of getting taken to the cleaners when you're dealing one-on-one with the producer.  Of course, what I really advocate is Raise Your Own, and go out and beat the socks off the High Dollar Calves with the big shot Professional Staff.  It's just as possible now as it ever was, and a whole lot more fun!!
 

Show Dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
5,127
Location
1 AU from a G2 yellow dwarf star
I have bought both privately and at auctions. I am leaning towards AAOK thinking on this.

What bugs me the most is where the sellers plants a false bidder to get to the minimum they want for the lot. If the seller has a floor then announce it. Plus most breeders put way to high of a floor price on their lots.

There is no better advertiser than some one who bought a quality animal for a little less than what it should have. There "best" calf is always the one that is the most bang for the buck and the first one they show and tell everyone about.
 

chambero

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
3,207
Location
Texas
At most club calf sales (and I'm sure most others), there are always a few people running bids up to the floor price for that animal.  When we consign animals, we tell the manager our floor.  We got burned when an animal got up above our floor, but the auctioneer read his spreadsheet wrong and "caught" the animal instead of letting it sell.  These things get screwed up every which way.  Which is why we like to just sell them ourselves for what we can get.
 
Top