when will the show industry start to reflect the production side?

[leanbeef]

I think this falls back to the judges for picking the heifers that are obviously more mature than their given class breaks.  As long as they are picking them to win or be at the top of the classes then it's going to continue.  I'll never forget the first time my daughter took a Shorthorn heifer to a major.  There was a heifer bagging up in the junior heifer class.

I think you make two points here. First, the 1700lb heifer is not industry standard and should not be picked to win the class.  And I agree, I hope that was not the size the judge picked through out the show but was specific to the class you watched.  Secondly, the standards that are excepted when classing steers and heifers.  As I stated, with the heifers, I think the judges are going to have to be the one to start putting these over mature heifers to the back of the classes and start making an example of them.  Personally,  I think it is killing the number of good kids and good families that participate in the heifers shows.  Once they go to the show and see whats going on they are less likely to come back.  If the game is to cheat or get buried in your class, most parents are going to teach their kids ethics and morals.  

As for the steers, I like the way its done in Ft. Worth but as I stated on a previous post, I think the kid that owns the steer or a kid from their county should be the one to lead the steers through classification.  Letting the breeders and steer jocks lead them through should be an embarrassment to the stock show.

Judges can not and should not be responsible for policing cattle that are over age in their class. Where would you draw the line? How many honest folks would be penalized because they have good, high performing cattle that some judge suspects might be older than the class they're in? That would not work.

If we can't reasonably honest, and if the only way we can win a class is to lie about a birthday, then I suspect we have bigger problems than not winning a class at the county fair. I don't see the solution being to size the heifers, either...the heavier/older cattle will always win because there has to be some measure of performance when comparing cattle to each other. We talk about weight per day of age...not weight per inch at the hip... As long as money (or prestige or recognition or power) is involved, there will be people who will do whatever they can get away with in order to win. And that won't be any different if you change the rules. Somebody will always try to bend them. I think we have to accept that as a part of it and focus on not being one of those people. And if everybody would do that... Well, everybody never will...but what if they did?

 

[hamburgman]

No commercial hog offits any where near here just show pigs, 20+ dollar bags of feed, umpteen different supplements, As far as weight not been in the hog deal for 7years and yes we always were holding them to keep them under 280 for the show. Did have a gilt we bred, born on 1/21 and hit 200 pounds 5/1 with 58 days to go to the fair, was she a joy.She hit the scales at 283, just lost too much power, won her class and that was it. She would have been perfect a month earlier.

Hate it when that happens, pigs look best when they are young with bloom.  Holding pigs results in stale ones and they just dont have that look.

 

[shoreacres]

After attending a show this weekend, and doing some thinking, what I used to alway think became an evident fact. The show industry seems to be heading in the wrong direction for economically raising cattle.

Our feeder calves topped the market when sold last december and half of them were sired by a flushmate to the ROV Embryo Dam of the Year for last year in the Angus breed. So I think it is possible to do both. Not common but not out of the question either. The calf sale was not a fluke as we have been at or near the top for the last four years with this bulls calves.  As for the hip height opinion, I showed English calves against Chi crosses in the Mid 80's and it was a benefit for me.  As for now I think, the better cattle will sort themselves to the top regardless of how they are classed, with a few exceptions of course.

 

[steerjock07]

i agree that the good cattle should sort themselves to the top but not will. It is just hard to look at a class of 8 where 6(75%) of them are the same size and the two that win are way bigger and believe that a judge is actually seeing the class logically and not letting size affect his opinion. At some point one must see the 2 taller ones as a distraction and focus on them more due to their mere size, even though they are out of place in the class.

 

[leanbeef]

As long as cattle sell by the pound, there will be points given to the cattle that grow. Performance is just one of the pieces of criteria a judge should consider, and it's probably a bigger benefit to cattle in younger classes because we all appreciate cattle that perform quickly compared to slower growers. When we compare bred heifers, it's easier to appreciate the "moderate" sized, smaller framed females in terms of the kind of cow they'll mature into considering things like functionality, efficiency and longevity. It takes a while to train ourselves to understand that those real modest sized brood cows don't usually start out as the fastest growing heifer calf in the pasture! I see a lot of judges use bigger cattle in the younger classes, and then switch off in the older classes, penalizing big framed cattle and opting for "moderate" frame scores. That always puzzles me. But you'd be surprised how much criticism you would get as a judge if you use the same heifers in younger classes. People don't like that lol

 

[LN]

I find this highly amusing since I just finished up watching breeding beef shows at the San Antonio stock show. I used to show cattle 10 years ago and am a seedstock breeder now producing bulls for the commercial segment. The most disturbing thing I noticed was how obese all the breeding cattle were. Those show folks are going to have a really tough time turning those females into cows once their show career is over.

And as far as using real world guys...I had two bulls in an All Breeds Sale and a component was a panel of "expert" cattlemen from the commercial segment judged the bulls in the auction ring prior to the sale and ranked them. The idiots picked frame 8 fitted up show bulls to win that would most certainly fall apart when turned out to breed cows. The best bull BY FAR was ranked 4th and turned out to be the high seller. Another bull that I really liked was ranked 25th or so and was the 2nd high seller.

 

[JSchroeder]

That all breed sale is not a commercial thing, it's a political thing.  The Hereford guys have enough people on the panel of the sale that they're able to load up the front end with those fat, large framed, Herefords.  It's been going on for years.

 

[showsteerdlux]

VC, where are you from that 240 lb fat hogs are sold?  I come from the hog dense area in the US and 240 lbs is a serious lightweight, you would be docked some serious cash for that pig.  Lots of 300+ pigs are sold, our window however is 270-290, with 280 being ideal for us. 

Where are you from? Here lately those 3 weight pigs have been the ones getting docked on the Smithfield lines. They are wanting those pigs coming in at 260-268 and thats about perfect. They're killing 33,000 a day at the big plant down here and thats what they are preaching. The bonuses on contract pigs are going to the boys who have service people that will actually work with them to sell at that point.

 

[LN]

That all breed sale is not a commercial thing, it's a political thing.  The Hereford guys have enough people on the panel of the sale that they're able to load up the front end with those fat, large framed, Herefords.  It's been going on for years.

I figured that going in, but none the less ridiculous. We bought 20 really nice open brangus heifers at $1300 a pop. I hope they're going to seem like a steal next year.

 

[Earthmover]

When Hell freezes over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  With the climate change that won't happen soon, LOL.

 

[hamburgman]

VC, where are you from that 240 lb fat hogs are sold?  I come from the hog dense area in the US and 240 lbs is a serious lightweight, you would be docked some serious cash for that pig.  Lots of 300+ pigs are sold, our window however is 270-290, with 280 being ideal for us. 

Where are you from? Here lately those 3 weight pigs have been the ones getting docked on the Smithfield lines. They are wanting those pigs coming in at 260-268 and thats about perfect. They're killing 33,000 a day at the big plant down here and thats what they are preaching. The bonuses on contract pigs are going to the boys who have service people that will actually work with them to sell at that point.

NW Iowa.  Grain and by-products are cheaper here than most areas so larger pigs aren't overly expensive to feed.  Maybe the swine packers use that Northern Iowa Southern MN area to fill heavy type contracts with buyers and other areas to fill their lighter (smaller) weight contracts.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Thatll work great for moderate clubby ones-theyll be older than the others in the class and alot more mature-mine might even move from the bottom 3 (lol) O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think this falls back to the judges for picking the heifers that are obviously more mature than their given class breaks.  As long as they are picking them to win or be at the top of the classes then it's going to continue.  I'll never forget the first time my daughter took a Shorthorn heifer to a major.  There was a heifer bagging up in the junior heifer class.

I think you make two points here. First, the 1700lb heifer is not industry standard and should not be picked to win the class.  And I agree, I hope that was not the size the judge picked through out the show but was specific to the class you watched.  Secondly, the standards that are excepted when classing steers and heifers.  As I stated, with the heifers, I think the judges are going to have to be the one to start putting these over mature heifers to the back of the classes and start making an example of them.  Personally,  I think it is killing the number of good kids and good families that participate in the heifers shows.  Once they go to the show and see whats going on they are less likely to come back.  If the game is to cheat or get buried in your class, most parents are going to teach their kids ethics and morals.  // Took the words right out of this BIG mouth (lol) O0

As for the steers, I like the way its done in Ft. Worth but as I stated on a previous post, I think the kid that owns the steer or a kid from their county should be the one to lead the steers through classification.  Letting the breeders and steer jocks lead them through should be an embarrassment to the stock show.

 

[Limiman12]

Same argument happens in any industry that has shows.  I run hunt tests with my Labrador retrievers.  There it is  conformation bred labs, blocky, fat lazy etc, vs field bred labs. Ugly hyper narrow.    The stereo type is there for a reasona s a lot fall into one category or the other, but a select few can combine the two at some level.  Those a the true jewels.

Same in cattle,  There will always be the clubby high birthweight low conversion calves out there as long as bulls like heat wave throw calves that dominate shows.    There will always yes be some people breeding raising and showing good functional cattle that can fit the rail, or be turned out to pasture when their career is over.  Those are the jewels.

As someone said on a thread giving someone advice a while back.    Show good breeding cattle, don't try to breed good show cattle.  For 99% of the world that is awfully good advice

 

[knabe]

When socialism runs out of other people's money.