YG system flawed?

[Mill Iron A]

I've thought this for a long time that our current YG system is missing the mark.  Cattle that do well have low B.F. and big loin muscles over the 12th and 13th rib which is a start but why discount for bigger carcasses? Why only measure muscle at one point in the topline?  The whole top is filled with high priced cuts and I have seen way too many carcass cattle have large loin muscles where the carcass is ribbed and be flat right behind their shoulder and have no hip and hind leg!  There is a large difference between an 800 lb british carcass and an 800 lb continental carcass. True yield of muscle to the box is much more impressive on the continental calf. Any thoughts?

 

[knabe]

the system is set up to discount and take out fixed costs, pressuring flexible costs.

the system seems to be influenced heavily by legislation and the USDA.

electing people who will provide competition to the marketplace will help, but that will take time and right now, competition is viewed as competing for subsidies and penalizing imports all the while driving up housing costs so our system is less competitive globally.

people complain about subsidies to big oil, but green energy gets far more subsidies and almost no one is willing to give up their interest credit on their home loan and exemption for property tax.

people could start their own processing plants, railroads etc.  if the federal government sold more land west of the continental divide, perhaps a new railroad could be privately constructed, but then people would complain about that because it's not public and demand the government take it over.  for some reason, america doesn't like competition anymore.  maybe we never really did.

 

[kfacres]

I don't know of very many packers who pay a premium based off of a YG pay scale...  I know of plenty that pay based off QG, or a combo of YG/ QG. 

When you start focusing on YG, you get big, rangy, hard gutted cattle... that most likely won't grade...  ie; the old cont cattle that you mention.

Not, don't get me wrong, IMO the bigger the REA, the better the steak. 

In terms of where they cut the carcass- you have to start somewhere, obviously, someone along the lines established that at that point, would be the best indicator of overal carcass muscle. 

bigger carcasses are discounted for their lack of 'boxed beef'.  The packing community wants a consistant product, that fits into the box..plain and simple.  I would guess the discount for too big, is about as big as too little... 

There is a large difference between an 800 lb british carcass and an 800 lb continental carcass.

Yes, in more than one way... that 800 lb british cross, might not have as big of a REA, but I bet it's got twice as much marbling. 

True yield of muscle to the box is much more impressive on the continental calf.

Yes, but more times than not, the eating experience of the british calf will be more pleasurable.  Marbling goes hand in hand with taste and palatability. 

It all boils back to the combo of Y and Q grades being ideal...

 

[twistedhshowstock]

There are a number of reasons why the system is the way it is.  One is for convenience, do you know the number of carcasses that go through those lines on a daily basis? It is logistically impossible for them measure every muscle area, and then add all those measurments into a calculation to figure yield grade. As Jody said this is why they chose an area to measure and developed a formula that gives a pretty close calculation. Yes its true that there are many many ways to increase the yield grade, but its not all about yield grade, carcass quality has to go in there as well.  It doesnt matter if you are consistantly producing the highest yielding calves the world has ever seen, if the carcass quality isnt there you arent gonna sell for a premium.

 

[Mill Iron A]

There are some premiums for YG but mostly it's the discounts that can add up. On the grid we are on it's $20 per cwt for a YG 4 and the choice select spread is what? True there are a fair amount of grids that pay above and beyond the commodity choice select spread but it is a balance like you said.  What I was getting at is all those carcasses that go by the line in a day are usually graded by a machine now.  Do we not have the technology to quick scan each carcass for bone to muscle to fat ratios? There is one piece that heavy muscling brings to the table so to speak that you both left out and that is that heavier muscled cattle are typically more tender according to shear force tests as well as genetic indicators.  I know there is no easy answer I just thought we are breeding "carcass" cattle with a lot of bone for carcass weight with big ribeyes.  For example the holstein steers aren't much fun to feed but they sure rock the C.A.B. grid!

 

[nate53]

Yield grades can be determined by the following formula:  2.50 + (2.5 X adjusted fat thickness in inches) + (0.2 X percent kidney, heart and pelvic fat) + (0.0038 X hot carcass weight) - (0.32 X ribeye area in square inches).
Or yield grades can be determined by a "shortcut method"  .  USDA yield grades are expressed as a whole number they range from 1 (lean and heavy muscled) to 5 (fat and light muscled).

It seems you all are talking about two very different things, one Yield Grade and two Hot Yield.

I had the opportunity to walk through the U.S. Premium (National Beef) plant several years ago in Dodge City, I don't remember for sure how many they did in a day but it was a lotttttttt.  From the animal being stunned and then the throat slit the carcass would be hung on a rail and it didn't stop moving until it hit the cooler for a specified # of hours before being processed.  Hundreds of people doing one job over and over.  

As far as carcass weights 1000 and up is $15.00 per hundred deduct and the same for 575 and under.  Yield Grades 1 and 2 get a small premium ( $1- 3.00 approx.) YG 3's no deducts and no premium, YG 4's $10 per hundred and for YG5's it is $15 per hundred (deducts).   Things have to fit in the box.

 We've had a few 1000 pound carcasses and that is an automatic $150 deduct and yet 1 lb. lighter and it would have been 0.  But it's hard for me to complain we just got $2200 for a single calf out at U.S.P., that's the most we've gotten (prices are good) ;D

 

[nate53]

There are some premiums for YG but mostly it's the discounts that can add up. On the grid we are on it's $20 per cwt for a YG 4 and the choice select spread is what? True there are a fair amount of grids that pay above and beyond the commodity choice select spread but it is a balance like you said.  What I was getting at is all those carcasses that go by the line in a day are usually graded by a machine now.  Do we not have the technology to quick scan each carcass for bone to muscle to fat ratios? There is one piece that heavy muscling brings to the table so to speak that you both left out and that is that heavier muscled cattle are typically more tender according to shear force tests as well as genetic indicators.  I know there is no easy answer I just thought we are breeding "carcass" cattle with a lot of bone for carcass weight with big ribeyes.  For example the holstein steers aren't much fun to feed but they sure rock the C.A.B. grid!

If you can't make it to prime there is no reason to feed past YG3, choice - select spread is basically nothing.  $20 for a YG 4 that's a lot, that's twice what U.S. Premium is doing right now.  I would think that there would be some sort of technology to scan the carcass, sounds like more money for the packer to spend, so probally won't be any time soon.

 

[kfacres]

I had the opportunity to walk through the U.S. Premium (National Beef) plant several years ago in Dodge City, I don't remember for sure how many they did in a day but it was a lotttttttt.  From the animal being stunned and then the throat slit the carcass would be hung on a rail and it didn't stop moving until it hit the cooler for a specified # of hours before being processed.  Hundreds of people doing one job over and over.  

I've been through a walk through as well... Walked through Joslin, seen everything  but the knock box... which from what I hear isn't anything but a small crowd pen, with mexicans in armor, and a stun gun.  They don't let the public see that...  I forget how many they do- think it was like 8000 a day...

I've also walked two hog butchering plants- monmouth and beardstown.  I think beardstown does something like 10-15000 a day.  same thing, just a smaller meat animal going down the line.

 

[nate53]

I've been through a walk through as well... Walked through Joslin, seen everything  but the knock box... which from what I hear isn't anything but a small crowd pen, with mexicans in armor, and a stun gun.  They don't let the public see that...  I forget how many they do- think it was like 8000 a day...

I've also walked two hog butchering plants- monmouth and beardstown.  I think beardstown does something like 10-15000 a day.  same thing, just a smaller meat animal going down the line.
[/quote]

Out at dodge they had a alley system that let to a head catch (the calves actually walk themselves onto a set of rollers- under their belly, which takes them to the head catch), but your idea with mexicans in armor and a stun gun sounds cool. 8)  Been to Beardstown as well, we've been shipping there the past several weeks and field rep said 18,000 a day is capacity.  Seeing plants like this make me think of a saying (never get in a knife fight with a mexican just draw the gun).   

 

[kfacres]

I don't remember which plant it was, but the Oxygen pit to stun the pigs was the coolest thing I've probably ever seen.  But i would hate to see what would happen if some terrorist ever decided to blow up the Oxygen silo.

I also thought it was ironic that when we visited Monmouth they stated that the only non mechanized job on force was the internal fat pullers (I forget the specific name) on the inside of the carcass. Then two weeks later, when at Beardstown they had a sawsaw type thingy doing the job... 

 

[countyagent]

I've thought this for a long time that our current YG system is missing the mark.  Cattle that do well have low B.F. and big loin muscles over the 12th and 13th rib which is a start but why discount for bigger carcasses? Why only measure muscle at one point in the topline?  The whole top is filled with high priced cuts and I have seen way too many carcass cattle have large loin muscles where the carcass is ribbed and be flat right behind their shoulder and have no hip and hind leg!  There is a large difference between an 800 lb british carcass and an 800 lb continental carcass. True yield of muscle to the box is much more impressive on the continental calf. Any thoughts?

To answer your original question bigger carcasses are discounted because carcasses are cut into primals, these separate primals are packaged in boxes together.  The larger carcasses get discounted because at a certain point their primal (i.e loin, rib, round, chuck) gets too big to fit the specified amount in the box.  Lets say the packer wants to ship out boxes of loins that weigh 100lbs (arbitrary number).  They could fit in 4 loins from an 800lb carcass meaning the loins weigh 25 lbs each.  Assuming the same ratios, a loin from a 1200lb carcass would weigh 37.5 lbs.  If the packer is limited by total weight of the box (100lbs) then he could only fit in 2 loins from the 1200lb animal and still be in the box specification.  That means there was 25lbs of available space wasted, or instead of wasting the space you have to spend the time, effort, and money to find a loin to match that weight.   

Also, there are grids that give a premium for YG (Lauras Lean Beef comes to mind).  There is always someone out there looking for beef that meets their criteria, the problem for you as a producer might be that they are in CA and youre in FL...If you are having a problem with the prices you are getting on your cattle you might look into changing the type of cattle you raise to accommodate for their requests.

Finally, Holstein steers can't qualify for the Certified Angus Beef Program.  CAB has restrictions against dairy type cattle for inferior muscling...

 

[kfacres]

I've thought this for a long time that our current YG system is missing the mark.  Cattle that do well have low B.F. and big loin muscles over the 12th and 13th rib which is a start but why discount for bigger carcasses? Why only measure muscle at one point in the topline?  The whole top is filled with high priced cuts and I have seen way too many carcass cattle have large loin muscles where the carcass is ribbed and be flat right behind their shoulder and have no hip and hind leg!  There is a large difference between an 800 lb british carcass and an 800 lb continental carcass. True yield of muscle to the box is much more impressive on the continental calf. Any thoughts?

Finally, Holstein steers can't qualify for the Certified Angus Beef Program.  CAB has restrictions against dairy type cattle for inferior muscling...

Last time the only thing regarding breeds not qualifing, was not being "eared"... not against dairy... The only thing, as of the last time I knew-- was the color factor... If a Holstein steer meets with muscling, it's CAB

 

[countyagent]

http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php

straight off of the CAB website...technically I guess you would be correct that IF a Holstein steer would hit the 1 in 10 million shot of having enough muscle and met the other qualifications then he could qualify.  But that is in all likelihood never going to happen.  Additionally, the restrictions dont count against the ear (there are no ears on the carcass and there are other breeds that have large ears too) instead they count against hump height.

 

[kfacres]

http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php

technically I guess you would be correct that IF a Holstein steer would hit the 1 in 10 million shot of having enough muscle and met the other qualifications then he could qualify.  But that is in all likelihood never going to happen.  Additionally, the restrictions dont count against the ear (there are no ears on the carcass and there are other breeds that have large ears too) instead they count against hump height.

Just as I remember it...  I knew there was something keeping the eared cattle out of the system, but couldn't remember if it was hump, or ear.. Doesn't matter, i was correct in memory- Holsteins can, and have in fact been certified CAB. 

I bet you'd be suprised on Holstein steers and how they look cut out... 

Irregardless, a Holstein can in fact qualify CAB, and "eared", cattle cannot.  Eared, as 99.9% of people on here know it, is eared... not "big eared" of a funky breed.

 

[countyagent]

http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php

technically I guess you would be correct that IF a Holstein steer would hit the 1 in 10 million shot of having enough muscle and met the other qualifications then he could qualify.  But that is in all likelihood never going to happen.  Additionally, the restrictions dont count against the ear (there are no ears on the carcass and there are other breeds that have large ears too) instead they count against hump height.

Just as I remember it...  I knew there was something keeping the eared cattle out of the system, but couldn't remember if it was hump, or ear.. Doesn't matter, i was correct in memory- Holsteins can, and have in fact been certified CAB. 

I bet you'd be suprised on Holstein steers and how they look cut out... 

Irregardless, a Holstein can in fact qualify CAB, and "eared", cattle cannot.  Eared, as 99.9% of people on here know it, is eared... not "big eared" of a funky breed.

You just contradicted yourself...if you said "just how I remembered it" then the next sentence said "but couldn't remember if it was hump or ear" you didn't remember correctly.  Ill let that slide though, now on to my rebuttal.

I in fact do know how Holstein steers look cut out, I was on a National Championship Meat Judging Team at A&M and have spent countless hours looking at thousand upon thousand of carcasses in plants all around the Nation. Just about every time we went into a plant for practice there were dairy-type cattle on the rail; so to answer your assumption about me, I am not surprised at how Holstein steers look when cut out.  They are light muscled on the hoof and on the rail which is to be expected.

Does my experience make me an expert? Absolutely not, does it mean I know the vast difference between dairy-type cattle and beef cattle on the rail? Yes.  That being said, I would not argue that Holsteins have indeed qualified under CAB guidelines, with the sheer number of calves that have gone through a plant there could have been some sneak in; however, given the vast inferiority of their muscling I find it HIGHLY unlikely and illogical to assume that they do so on a regular basis. 

As far as your last statement goes, "eared cattle" (Brahman influenced) actually can qualify.  The only limiting factor their breed character is hump height.  Being from the Texas where the vast majority of our mature cow herd is Brahman influenced (tiger stripes, brangus, gerts, and all the typical crosses) I can assure you that there are thousands of calves of Brahman influence that have less than 2 inches of hump height.  I am not saying that an animal directly sired by a Brahman bull would qualify but, a calf out of a brangus cow and an angus bull would indeed have a great shot at qualifying.  I would in fact argue that the calves out of the previous mating given (Angus x Brangus) would stand a significantly higher chance of qualifying as opposed to a holstein. 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...irregardless isn't a word.  It's regardless.

Thanks for playing though, I always enjoy a good debate.
 

 

[kfacres]

So, the next question is. is the hump measurement taken with the head down, in a forward position, or in a cranked up position?

Does anyone actually measure every animals hump?  Do they have a measurement tool used, I'd like to begin taking hump measurements on my cattle, as I'm sure it directly coorelates to something of economical importance. 

Ha, neat to me, but I would have guessed to you be a Texan with your attitude.. Everything is always bigger and better in TX... Should been your own country. ;D  National Champion meat judging team !@ A/M.. WOW, good for you-- did you ever make the floor, or just get to keep the title.?  Was their any competition, toher than Tech?  I thought that college meats judging was a two school contest?

I don't mind playing along.. I always did hear you can fix stupid, but not ignorant... You know, I went to Sr. College with a girl from TX, and she was the dumbest c    unt I've ever been around. 

 

[countyagent]

Id recommend reading this article from the journal of animal science (I like to talk in facts and not make generalizations, unlike yourself). http://jas.fass.org/content/74/2/304.full.pdf

If you read in the materials and methods section it will tell you how they measure the hump height.  This is the same process used to measure humps in cattle that have tagged as potential CAB carcasses in a production facility. 

While I appreciate the sarcasm in your comment about wanting to measure the hump height on your cattle as you are "sure it directly coorelates to something of economical importance" if you read the rest of the study and find their conclusions you will find that the higher percentage of Brahman influence, and therefore a larger hump, there is a decrease in tenderness.  If you take that information and compare it to information from this studyhttp://jas.fass.org/content/23/4/1027.full.pdf+html mostly look at Experiment 4.  There you will see that tenderness and quality grade are closely related.  Therefore, its logical to say that hump height is directly correlated to something of economic importance, that something being quality grade.

(you misspelled correlates but, that's alright)

If you look back from everything I have said, I never once said that Texas was superior to every other state.  I have several friends throughout the US and have a great appreciation for how things are done in different areas.  The only reason I pointed out that I am from Texas was to illuminate the fact that I have had the opportunity to see several thousand Brahman influenced cattle.  If I came across in an elitist manner I apologize, that wasn't my intent in the least.  I have no bigotry against those not from Texas. 

I'd rather not reflect on my time spent judging but, if it will satisfy you I did win the Plainview contest, so I sufficiently carried my weight.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a 2 school contest since there are several universities that have very successful programs. 

As far as your last comment goes I believe you have your quote backwards.  Ignorant is defined as lacking knowledge.  Stupid is defined as lacking intelligence.  Knowledge is easily acquired through learning.  Intelligence can be gained over time but is more on an inherent trait independent to each person.  Either way, no big deal if you got them confused.  Several people use the words interchangeably, even though they mean 2 different things.  Also, I truly pity you if you make your generalization of Texans based off of your encounter with one girl you went to college with.  There are good and bad apples everywhere...

 

[kfacres]

so are we back in grade school with our spell check, and nit picky problems? 

 

[countyagent]

Not in the least, I get a kick out of pointing out stuff like that just to give the other person a hard time...this is the internet, nobody expects you to be formal, especially in your spelling.

However, I do expect that if you want to get into a debate with me you would have some well thought out points and counter-points that both sides could enjoy.  That being said, would you like to continue the debate on CAB qualifications or, would you rather concede?

 

[kfacres]

sure, I'll continue onward...

Since there is a distinct corelation between the brahma influenced cattle, marbling, and tenderness-- why would you suppose that they place the restrictions to keep eared cattle out, with the hump charactoristic-- if they likely wouldn't qualify anyways?  Obviously, there are cattle slipping into the CAB that have that influence- so do you suppose they get pushed aside based of Quality grade.?

Now, on to the next question.. I hear that apx. 40% of the nations beef supply is actual dairy influence?  Any rebutal?

What about the fact that around 95% of all Holstein steers grade choice or better, and 90% of them hit prime.. whereas only about 45% of "angus", or should I say black hided, hit choice?  Thoughts from the king of SP meat knowledge?

What's your thoughts on the Brahma breed incorperating something like the shorthorn and angus have tried, or done in the instance of genetic focus towards internal carcass traits?  Dont' you suppose the brahma breeders should be able to change the problems that their breed has been known for?

Don't worry about you Tesan attitude, it's perfectly normal... and don't worry, the crazy freak that I attended college with, was one in her own, and truly unique...  Funny, you talk about the good and bad apples... All's I can say, is the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

I'm sure the ignorant/ stupid trait quote gets mixed up more times than Texans are proud in a day... I think it greatly depends on which dictionary you look the definition up in.. I know one thing, our dictionaries here in the midwest, and nearly as perfect, or big for that matter as the texas ones...

btw, my job with the USDA, involves very little spell check, and I come naturally into being a poor speller, who gets worse as the quicker I move.. I think it's genetic though- dad's side of course.. mom was an over acheiver..

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