BREEDERS raising CHAROLAIS composites to register ....

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Freddy

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WHY was i allowed to register 1/2 blood bulls then, they sure took my money ....If you need a copy of them I can sure send them to you ....Happened about two years ago ,no wonder their not reconized to much if this  is the situatuion ...
 

Mark H

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If the website is up to date: Rule 2.c. : "c. sire having less than the 3/4 Charolais breeding is not eligible for recordation"
 

Mark H

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Freddy,

What is the full name and registration number of this recorded half blood bull?
 

Freddy

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FR-SILVER GHOST 8830--  REG. ---EMP 7    ISSUED 08-18-2008  ----------tHIS WAS THE FIRST ONE    THE ONE UP ABOVE IS MP203  ----the last one issued in 2010 -august is FR-STYLE 0810 ET reg. no. EMP 264  what a deal ....IS THERE A COLOR CODE FOR THE 3/4 BLOOD BULLS ...saw WHERE ON THE PUREBRED THEY REQUIRED  no spots, this must have started after the bull BAUMANS KRUGGERAND .....
 

Mark H

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Feddy,

You got me on that one.  Just what does the prefix "EMP" mean?  I am used to having recorded bulls with the prefix "RM" not EMP.  Are these bulls recorded on the herd book or as part of the records system you get with total herd reporting?  Perhaps you have enrolled this calf into total herd enrollment with out a recording number (RM).  It would be nice to find out from the AICA. 
In Canada if you have a  recorded animal out of a QFC or QMC the recorded animal is a Q as well.  I think this is how it would work in the U. S. for colored cattle.
 

RyanChandler

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No bull less than 31/32 can be REGISTERED in the Charolais Assoc.  Prior this this cross they are RECORDED.

What is this about the Spots and BAUMANS KRUGGERAND?   I bought a bull from M6 Charolais in Jack Moore's Dispersal.  I have his first calf crop on the ground and I'll be damned if there's not a quarter of the calves w/ spotting on their tail, tailhead, and down the inner legs.  These are black and red crossbred cows w/ absolutely ZERO spotting in their background.  After doing some research, apparently there are some Charolais that carry a spotting gene- Said because some are actually "white" instead of a "creme", that the spotting can go unnoticed in the bull but then be expressed in the offspring.  

Supporting this composite bull junk is terrible for the Char Association.   The only associations you see that support using composite bulls are those that do it as an act of desperation to increase their herd book #s and revenue..  Do you see the Angus Association promoting Balancers or Limflex???  Of course not!  Those are the efforts of the desperate.  
 

cyclone38

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So I will throw this question into the mix then. I have a 3/4 Charolais heifer that has turned out to be really nice looking and am excited about what she can do. I bought her off a neighbor as a bottle calf and he bred her using a purebred bull that they never registered as a purebred and bred her to a Charolais x Angus cow. The question is, with all the genetic testing that is available, can you do the testing and have her genetics looked at and then registered??
 

Freddy

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XBAR --The Angus don't haft to cater to the X-bred deall cause they have already got it mixed in,why do you think they are checking for all these genetic  defect, think those just showed up from a time tested breed closed to other breeds, I'M no  DOCTOR OF GENETICS  but can figure this one out ....Look at their CAB program it promotes black cattle and no bonus if their ANGUS ,supposedly are to be atleast 50 % to qualify,and then we all know the guidlines for big business ....PROFIT
 

RyanChandler

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cyclone38 said:
So I will throw this question into the mix then. I have a 3/4 Charolais heifer that has turned out to be really nice looking and am excited about what she can do. I bought her off a neighbor as a bottle calf and he bred her using a purebred bull that they never registered as a purebred and bred her to a Charolais x Angus cow. The question is, with all the genetic testing that is available, can you do the testing and have her genetics looked at and then registered??

NO.  To be Registered in the Charolais Assoc- the heifer would have had to come out of papered stock.  For example. If the dam was recorded at 7/8 and bred to registered purebred bull, then the offspring, a 15/16 animal would be Registered if a Female and Recorded if a male.   Males have to be 31/31 to be Registered.  Females 15/16.

If in your scenario- you could get the breeders of the purebred sire to register the bull, your heifer could then be RECORD as a half blood.  If the dam's dam was Registered and the sire of your heifer was Registered, then you could RECORD her as a 3/4.  

If neither the sire of your heifer nor the dam's dam were Registered, then there is NO WAY you can Register her- she is not even eligible to be recorded.  
 

RyanChandler

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Freddy said:
XBAR --The Angus don't haft to cater to the X-bred deall cause they have already got it mixed in,why do you think they are checking for all these genetic  defect, think those just showed up from a time tested breed closed to other breeds, I'M no  DOCTOR OF GENETICS  but can figure this one out ....Look at their CAB program it promotes black cattle and no bonus if their ANGUS ,supposedly are to be atleast 50 % to qualify,and then we all know the guidlines for big business ....PROFIT

There has never been a breed that didn't have some fraudulent breeders in it. There is nothing that can be done about this- its implicit in our convos that stuff comes in through the back door-  Weird you would make that comment being a Char breeder as they let the crossbreds in the front door through their Recording program.  Purebred Chars are loaded with Brahman genetics dating back to the 60s-early 70s.  If you're familiar with what was happening during that importation period, you know they were breeding FULLBLOODS to everything in sight trying to upgrade em to purebred status. 

Yes I do believe genetic defects can just show up- its called "mutations" - the basis of Evolution.

Wonder what % of black hided animals that are less than 50% angus  that still grade choice? 
 

Freddy

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I'm not really saying there are many cattle in the CAB program under 50 % ,how big a door do you want when the guys with 100% are paying  to make all that happen for that 50 % of other breeds .....How can you say that ANGUS didn't promote LIMFLEX OR BALANCER when they have the same opportunity to utilize the CAB program as the ANGUS ....

Yes the Charolais at least kept track of what breeds were used in breeding them ,not a group of breeders who decided the gene base wasn't big enough and so they helped the breed out at their own discretion with no records of what they did ....  HAVE you ever figured up how many years it takes to breed up a breed to 31/32 ,and also how many head it took to make this work ....My family was in that process and in 20 years your finally making a noticeable difference ....THERE also were Charolais breeders in the 60's with no BRAHMAN influence ,and yes it has took a lot of those breeders usinf that influence many years to get rid of that ....
Some what like what some other big breeds are facing now ......
 

cyclone38

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-XBAR- said:
cyclone38 said:
So I will throw this question into the mix then. I have a 3/4 Charolais heifer that has turned out to be really nice looking and am excited about what she can do. I bought her off a neighbor as a bottle calf and he bred her using a purebred bull that they never registered as a purebred and bred her to a Charolais x Angus cow. The question is, with all the genetic testing that is available, can you do the testing and have her genetics looked at and then registered??

NO.  To be Registered in the Charolais Assoc- the heifer would have had to come out of papered stock.  For example. If the dam was recorded at 7/8 and bred to registered purebred bull, then the offspring, a 15/16 animal would be Registered if a Female and Recorded if a male.   Males have to be 31/31 to be Registered.  Females 15/16.

If in your scenario- you could get the breeders of the purebred sire to register the bull, your heifer could then be RECORD as a half blood.  If the dam's dam was Registered and the sire of your heifer was Registered, then you could RECORD her as a 3/4.  

If neither the sire of your heifer nor the dam's dam were Registered, then there is NO WAY you can Register her- she is not even eligible to be recorded.  

XBAR - Thank you for your explanation. It is a shame that many people don't register their animals that are purebred but it is what it is I guess.
 

Freddy

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Back to the 1/2 blood registration question there is a percentage division mainly for 1/2 bloods that they can be registered or recorded ,the first cross must consist of a purebred Charolais registered animal ,then they are elgible to breed back to another individual of the same classification ....

ABOUT the Brahman influence was used early down south because of their heat tolerance together and proably more growth ....
 

RyanChandler

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I've never seen any Angus promotional material printed that supports Limflex or Balancer.  That noise is created by the Gelbvieh and Limousine Associations.

The Charolais Assoc absolutely did NOT keep track of what breeds were used in the upgrading program.  An individual was recorded with their Charolais percentage ONLY.  Hell, most of the females used were typical crossbred cows with unknown origin.  The importation of the FULLBLOODS was a huge deal in the States. There's not, that I know of, anything nowadays that can compare.  My grandpa tells me of people waiting in line for hours just to see some BAYARD sons on display.  Most cattlemen had never seen anything like these 3 thousand lb bulls before.  They were bred to anything and everything in a hysteria to try and increase the #s of Charolais cattle.  It takes 5 crosses to achieve Purebred status for bulls. 4 for females.

To get rid of the Brahman influence??? w/o that influence, the Char breed would have never gained the notoriety it did.  The Brahman influence is responsible for DRASTICALLY lowering their birthweights, increasing milk production, and giving them a hide that can tolerate MEXICO and the South-  Some of the early imports had hair like the Galloways.  Now you see slick headed, polled, easier doing cattle.  Look at some of the Full French bulls still bred over there today- you'll see the noticeable haircoat difference.  The success Mexico had with the imported Charolais in the 40-50s is what started the frenzy here in the bordering states.  Quarantine?? Those bulls were being pushed across the river as fast as they could get em.    You're right most of the bulls that were quarantined in Canada and used up there prolly have very little if any Brahman in them (AND THATS WHY THOSE LINES STILL HAVE THE HUGE BWs), but the overwhelming # of Chars that were in use in that time period were either smuggled from Mexico or Quarantined there and brought over legally.  What breed do you think they were using in Mexico to upgrade with?
SmokesRule said:
off topic, but why where they mixing brahmers into the Charolais back in the day?
Beau
Beau,
During the late 60s- Fullblood Chars were being imported to the states.  Because of their rarity and lack of shear numbers, The AICA opened the herd book to allow an upgrading program.  Because these Fullbloods were from the Alps, they were terribly unacclimated to the weather here in the South.  The Brahman was the breed of choice- Though everybreed under the sun was used- including a lot of hereford( hereford dominated as far as numbers go in this time period).  The crossbreds were "Recorded" in the record books until they reached their required status of "purebred" From here they could now be "Registered"
Here's a pic of my Grandpa and mom with his New Fullblood bull.  Ada, Ok 1969
 

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Mark H

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XBAR,

In the early days the Brahman influence in the Charolais was something we had to tolerate in the early days when cattle came up from the United States.  This was for two big reasons:  The Brahman influenced cattle wee more slick haired than we wanted and considered hard to winter and even more importantly the disposition on those Brahman influenced cattle was awful.  I remember being put over a fence many times by the Brahman influenced cattle.  The Brahman influenced cattle and Texas Full Bloods were more fertile and better milking than the Full French so when you crossed them things balanced out .
The big thing to improve calving ease was not the influence of anyone breed.  It was through the Conception to Consumer (C to C) program than the cow killers were eliminated and functional traits were identified in all bloodlines in the breed.  The C to C program collected calving, growth and carcass data on commercial cows in a ranch environment  and led to the improvements the breed made in calving ease, fertility and growth since then.  Because of this program plenty of bulls had their semen put into warm storage.
The Canadian Charolais Association did track the origin of the breeds used to upgrade on.  Most of the cow herds used were Hereford, Angus and Shorthorn.  The Canadians discriminated against upgrading on dairy cows and put a D on the front of the registration number of any animal so recorded.
 
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