BREEDERS raising CHAROLAIS composites to register ....

[Freddy]

THERE were herds like MEICHALIS RANCH to my knowledge that were no Brahma influence, and with the generated pedigrees in AICA you can trace your cattle back to their origin....This ranch did use red ANGUS for a breeding up program ,but to my knowledge no BRAHMAN ...THE  COBB ranch in Montana originated from this herd also .....Not sure but think the FERRIS ranch in Wyoming also used cattle from the MEICHALIS  to originate ..........

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

Quite a number of Michaelis cattle made it up to Canada via a swap deal they cut with Don Pochylko where Michaelis got half of The french import bull Aiglon  in exchange for a few dozen cows of his pick in their herd.  Aiglon turned out to be a bull that chimed in with the times being very easy calving bull that croossed well with the Texas cattle.
Michaelis ranch is a big advocate of Red Factor cattle with the red color coming from Hereford and Shorthorn breeding.  The ranch history is very interesting and online: http://www.michaelisranch.com/Michaelis_Ranch/Michaelis_Charolais.html

 

[RyanChandler]

That's absolutely not my understanding of how/why there are red factor Charolais. 

My understanding is that ALL Charolais are homozygous Red but they, the traditional colored chars, also carry a diluter gene.  The original fullbloods were more of a creme color.  It seems to me the slicker hided bulls also are/were more of a white color..  like the early brahmans.

 

[SmokesRule]

I've never seen any Angus promotional material printed that supports Limflex or Balancer.  That noise is created by the Gelbvieh and Limousine Associations.

The Charolais Assoc absolutely did NOT keep track of what breeds were used in the upgrading program.   An individual was recorded with their Charolais percentage ONLY.  Hell, most of the females used were typical crossbred cows with unknown origin.  The importation of the FULLBLOODS was a huge deal in the States. There's not, that I know of, anything nowadays that can compare.   My grandpa tells me of people waiting in line for hours just to see some BAYARD sons on display.  Most cattlemen had never seen anything like these 3 thousand lb bulls before.  They were bred to anything and everything in a hysteria to try and increase the #s of Charolais cattle.  It takes 5 crosses to achieve Purebred status for bulls. 4 for females.

To get rid of the Brahman influence??? w/o that influence, the Char breed would have never gained the notoriety it did.  The Brahman influence is responsible for DRASTICALLY lowering their birthweights, increasing milk production, and giving them a hide that can tolerate MEXICO and the South-  Some of the early imports had hair like the Galloways.  Now you see slick headed, polled, easier doing cattle.  Look at some of the Full French bulls still bred over there today- you'll see the noticeable haircoat difference.  The success Mexico had with the imported Charolais in the 40-50s is what started the frenzy here in the bordering states.  Quarantine?? Those bulls were being pushed across the river as fast as they could get em.    You're right most of the bulls that were quarantined in Canada and used up there prolly have very little if any Brahman in them (AND THATS WHY THOSE LINES STILL HAVE THE HUGE BWs), but the overwhelming # of Chars that were in use in that time period were either smuggled from Mexico or Quarantined there and brought over legally.  What breed do you think they were using in Mexico to upgrade with?

off topic, but why where they mixing brahmers into the Charolais back in the day?
Beau

Beau,
During the late 60s- Fullblood Chars were being imported to the states.  Because of their rarity and lack of shear numbers, The AICA opened the herd book to allow an upgrading program.  Because these Fullbloods were from the Alps, they were terribly unacclimated to the weather here in the South.  The Brahman was the breed of choice- Though everybreed under the sun was used- including a lot of hereford( hereford dominated as far as numbers go in this time period).  The crossbreds were "Recorded" in the record books until they reached their required status of "purebred" From here they could now be "Registered"
Here's a pic of my Grandpa and mom with his New Fullblood bull.  Ada, Ok 1969

Thanks for the info and the pic! You learn something new everyday....

 

[Mark H]

XBAR,

Full French arewell haired, have less frame, are more muscled, and generally are slower growing compared to todays purebreds. They are also better on grass being easy doing. Some creme colored cattle came from France that were red factor carriers. A bull called Tee Anchor Aiglon looked like a Simmental when he was wet.
That said WW II caused a break down in all herd books during that period.  All the elite purebred herds  (all breeds) were pushed into the Alps to keep the Germans from eating them.  This was a drastic change from the Burgundy hills that is the traditional Charolais home (best farm land in France).  How could they track matings in such an environment?  They didn't.
The Full French influence was necessary as the Mexican imports didn't provide enough genetic diversity.  That is the reason for the frenzy that led to the exotic imports as the imports made a huge difference in growth and carcassi.

 

[RyanChandler]

Freddy,

Quite a number of Michaelis cattle made it up to Canada via a swap deal they cut with Don Pochylko where Michaelis got half of The french import bull Aiglon  in exchange for a few dozen cows of his pick in their herd.  Aiglon turned out to be a bull that chimed in with the times being very easy calving bull that croossed well with the Texas cattle.
Michaelis ranch is a big advocate of Red Factor cattle with the red color coming from Hereford and Shorthorn breeding.  The ranch history is very interesting and online: http://www.michaelisranch.com/Michaelis_Ranch/Michaelis_Charolais.html

Their explanation for the "red factor" is bogus.  As I thought, ALL Charolais are Homozygous Recessive Red.

"The genetics that influence the white coat colour of Charolais is known as the "diluter gene" which effectively masks the red base colour and allows Charolais the distinctive colour of White."
http://www.squidoo.com/charolais

 

[veritas]

Mark H,

Not sure why website not updated but in 2009 halfblood bulls were allowed in the herdbook.  Whether recorded, registered, or whatever they call it, they were accepted so that halfblood females could be mated to them and keep the minimum 50% Charolais.  This article mentions the motion that was approved and announced in the Charolais Journal.

http://articles.aberdeennews.com/2009-12-11/news/26363315_1_registry-charolais-dam

Veritas

 

[HF CHARS]

I may be wrong,,,but this whole thread started because of the concern of youth not being able to show heifers out of half blood bulls.  IMO they should not be able too.  as the article says,these cattle are not able to be bred up to purebred status ,therefore being in a different herdbook  also the breeders using these halfblood bulls to make steers need to be careful.  the aijca rules clearly state that steers are to have one PUREBRED parent,,,we start pushing this too much and they will require papers on steers,and pull DNA on champs.  half blood bulls have a place ,but lets not put some of these kids and parents at risk because they don't know better when the breeder" his sire is a papered composite bull"  and they assume its ok to show him

 

[RSC]

Why have a registration for half bloods if you can't use them to breed up the %? Sounds like a gimmick to sell registrations to me.

 

[Mark H]

RSC,

I agree with you not only can you not use them to grade up or show, but these cattle don't even have any EPDs.  So what did Freddy get out of getting percentage papers on this bull?  I would like to know. 

 

[Freddy]

I gave the association the right to verify through DNA THAT HE IS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSE TO BE ,some of these other breeds should try this ,but instead of a composite group they ought to have a HEAT WAVE  GROUP and see how many of them are really sons of HEAT WAVE ....

 

[Mark H]

That was very good of you to verify the parentage on the bull but what can you do with him now?

 

[Freddy]

I  would thank you guys for all your commments on this if you knew what you were talking about ,I feel like I'm being filibustered  by the CONGRESS ....FIRST THING as  a breeder HF  you should pay better attention to what your assoc. is doing ,I've been registering composite steers in Charolais assoc. for 3-4 years ,every year for kids in IOWA ,IT IS REQUIREDTHERE ,ALL OF YOU KNOW that there isn't a composite bull registry, your wrong,the association did this not me or my little gang, weather I like this or not this is the way it is and I was trying to educate people about it ,and some are very hard to communicate with ...I  think the ASOCC. HAS NOT done a very good job of carrying these programs out, you register steers to shiow in IOWA and then go to Nationals AND THEY use a sifting committee to pick steers that have the characteristics of Charolais ....

Personally would like having a small herd of consistant half bloods ,you have a chance to put the best qualities of 2-3 breeds in one package with no restrictions ,SOMEONE mentioned EPD'S ,YOU HAVE TWO OPPTIONS THERE ,some people think your not missing much with out them, the other people can use the system they have comparing different breeds ,I'm sure he percentage SIMMI'S ARE DOING THIS ,,,,,,

I also listened to all the history of the breed to the most part was pretty accurate ,but did you know in the sixty's the AICA hit the country with growth and new ides's for the cattlemen and scared all the breeds with their overall accomplishments ...ANGUS was a nobody breed back then ,ANGUS took things by the HORNS and made some changes ,to make their breed the power it is today.... Please tell me what the white breed has done since the 80's to make any impact on the cattle industry ....They pretty much have been a pack horse behind the ANGUS ....

 

[RyanChandler]

I for one am THRILLED the AICA has not done a very good job of carrying out these programs.  Any movement towards composites, is a movement agains Purebreds.

 

[Freddy]

NEVER kneew till now you guys had such a hatred for the CHAROLAIS BREED ,WITH OUT THAT COMPOSITE CALF  ,YOUR DONE AS A BREED,thaty composite is the most valuable product that the CHAROLAIS CATTLE PRODUCE,SOUND LIKE WHEN THEY USE TO advertise being a TERMINAL breed .,, LOL

 

[frostback]

I dont read where they are against the composite calf but only against papering it. If I cant breed towards a purebred then why spend the money to paper a half heifer or bull. Papering steers to show is something else altogether.

 

[RyanChandler]

NEVER kneew till now you guys had such a hatred for the CHAROLAIS BREED ,WITH OUT THAT COMPOSITE CALF  ,YOUR DONE AS A BREED,thaty composite is the most valuable product that the CHAROLAIS CATTLE PRODUCE,SOUND LIKE WHEN THEY USE TO advertise being a TERMINAL breed .,, LOL

I love Charolais Cattle- As a Matter of fact - I run a M6 Charolais bull on my commercial cows right now M786658.. that bull good enough for you??

I agree the terminal composite calf is the most valuable product the Char can produce.  I would think that would be the goal of all Char breeders: To produce bulls for the commercial cattleman who wants max performance/growth out of his/her calves.   Just like the goal of breeders of a maternal breed should be to produce bulls for the cattleman who want to produce F1 females.  I don't use Shorthorns for a terminal cross.  I don't use Charolais for making replacements.  I specialize. The jack of all trades is the master of none.  If someone ask me what kind of bull to put on their cows the first thing I ask them is,"do you plan on keeping replacements or are you looking to pound the scales?"  If they say pounds, boom! Right to Charolais my spill goes.  If they want replacements, all I can see is red, white, and roan.  

 

[Mark H]

XBAR,

You picked a bull with solid EPDs and he should work fine for you.  If you like a big BWT Yearling spread also look at NIPP Charolais they have some  similar cattle out of the MR Perfect line- good all around cattle.
Check out Buffalo Lake Charolais and Shorthorns to see what true terminal Charolais bulls are like.  Note the Full french bulls with good EPDs.  If you want to know what works on shorthorns ask him: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/cat12/buffalolake/index.htm.
In Australia the Angus and Shorthorn Charolais bull is becoming a standard feature look at these websites:
http://www.wakefieldcharolais.com.au/composite-programme.php
http://www.palgrove.com.au/our-cattle-33.html