Sell him as a show steer, or keep him a bull? New Pic on 8/11/13

ZNT · Mar 16, 2013

So this is an interesting decision to make on this calf. It is a decision of potential marketability as a low birth weight, polled, high percentage Maine bull, versus steering him and making a very solid show steer. Nobody is saying he is going to win the next major, nor that he will be the next Ali, but either direction, he does bring value.

So here is what he is.
3/4 Maine out of a Sooner x DMCC Jazz sire, and a Hardcore x CTR Success cow. He is TH and PHA Free, and only had a 48# birth weight. His dam is a 3/4 sib to our ZNT Jenna 707T donor cow that produced Montego Bay and Moves Like Jagger. He was born in early September.

I am looking forward to hearing the talking points on this one.

Barry Farms · Mar 16, 2013

I voted bull because with a BW that low he is a VERY usable option on clubby heifers and small second calvers that arent bred to be momma's

Telos · Mar 16, 2013

Zane. First of all, super looking bull. When I see a Maine bull with that much rib shape and that good angle to his structure, I say definitely leave him a bull. That is just a rare commodity in modern Maines'. When you Analyze his pedigree, I also say leave him a bull. From the original foundation cow to his sire, genetically he's as potent as any Maine out there. I know his foundation mother was a great 6807 donor cow and his sire is also uniquely bred going back to the great Ashley cow. With Sooner, Jazz and Hardcore also out of tremendous cows. He is lined up solid with great cow families and it doesn't come much better. Add in no Ali or Energizer genetics and a 48# BW, solid black, polled, and you might have something that is extremely important.

Personally, I would call Lautner up and offer him half semen interest. He would promote him as his new calving ease specialist and send you a big fat check every three months for the next ten or more years. And I'm not joking!

Just my two cents.

mark tenenbaum · Mar 16, 2013

I would say bull-given his BW and stacked pedigree-I cant tell how thick he is from behind-and he looks a little fine boned in the picture-but he has a maternal look that would work ,safely,on a man amongst boys terminal type female. He looks like hed have a little too much daylight under him and performance to make a show steer-he doesnt have an extreme clubby look O0

ZNT · Mar 16, 2013

Telo has a little extra insight on the pedigree of this bull. Here are links to both the sire and dams pedigrees for the rest of you.

Sire: http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=298089

Dam: http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=345800

AAOK · Mar 16, 2013

DMCC POLLEROID 29A ET - 156123
DMCC LIMITED EDITION 4F - 225824
DAZZLERS FANCY DANCER - 84249
SLC SOONER 101M - 331256
HALL'S LEGACY PLUS 738 - 257903
PANNELL MISS 015 - 275292
PANNELL MISS 582 - 253324
SZH DEUCES ARE WILD - 387004
FGJ HABANERO - 222571
DVMM JAZZ - 247388
DVMM 9611 - 247276
LLL PRINCESS 425P - 333752
PLD PURSUIT - 157403
LLND CICELY ET - 196489
LLND ASHLEY - 145341

The top side of this guy is loaded! How can one go wrong with Limited Edition, Legacy Plus, and Habanero ? That' s a lot of Bull. I'm not as impressed with the genetic base of the Dam, but RGS Payoff and Habanero add up to a top sire of this Dam.

By all means, keep him as a bull. The only objection I have to phenotype is I would like to see more extension in his neck.

leanbeef · Mar 16, 2013

Barry Farms said:
I voted bull because with a BW that low he is a VERY usable option on clubby heifers and small second calvers that arent bred to be momma's

"Small second calvers that aren't bred to me mamas"...I wish I had a field full of those! (He said sarcastically...)

In all honesty, I like this calf a lot better from the rib forward than I do from his flank back. I don't know the Maine pedigrees or cow families, but it sounds like that is a piece of this calf that adds some value. You mentioned he was black & polled, and I'm not sure how much difference it might make in the Maine deal, but I might consider the possibility that he's HOMOZYGOUS black and polled if that makes him worth any more as a bull. I think it just comes down to what kind of market you have for bulls or steers, which way you think he does the most for your program, and how you want to market him. He looks and sounds like he could have potential either way.

ZNT · Mar 16, 2013

AAOK said:
The top side of this guy is loaded! How can one go wrong with Limited Edition, Legacy Plus, and Habanero ? That' s a lot of Bull. impressed with the genetic base of the Dam, but RGS Payoff and Habanero add up to a top sire of this Dam.

Yep, I agree about the sire. He is an obscure bull, but the pedigree is pretty incredible. Deuces Are Wild's dam is still one of my favorite females I have seen in a long time. We actually have another Deuces son out of Montego Bay and Moves Like Jagger's dam that we are getting ready for Jr. Nationals for the Bred and Owned Bull Show. We are pretty excited about him.

kkisling1 · Mar 17, 2013

Really neat seeing the pedigree of this bull. We own a full sister to the LLL Princess cow. By far the best cow on our place. I'd say leave a bull

AAOK · Mar 17, 2013

ZNT said:
AAOK said:

The top side of this guy is loaded! How can one go wrong with Limited Edition, Legacy Plus, and Habanero ? That' s a lot of Bull. impressed with the genetic base of the Dam, but RGS Payoff and Habanero add up to a top sire of this Dam.

Click to expand...

Yep, I agree about the sire. He is an obscure bull, but the pedigree is pretty incredible. Deuces Are Wild's dam is still one of my favorite females I have seen in a long time. We actually have another Deuces son out of Montego Bay and Moves Like Jagger's dam that we are getting ready for Jr. Nationals for the Bred and Owned Bull Show. We are pretty excited about him.

Those obscure Bulls sure can fool us. A Poleroid X Magic bull we raised in the late 90s was the most consistent and also the most profitable venture our family produced. We took two young Heifers of his to the MA Jr Nats in Wichita Falls. Won both classes, and a Div. then sold both calves before we left. I used that bull 3 seasons & traded him for 25 straws of Meyer 734.

Is the MA Jr Nat in KC this summer? Haven' t been since 2004.

Mainevent · Mar 17, 2013

Nationals is located in grand island Nebraska this year.

dimebag · Mar 18, 2013

Nice calf , i would say leave him a bull with those genetic's and birthweight .

hevmando · Mar 18, 2013

This post is a great example of the knowledge and experience on this site. My first thought when I read the title of the post was, "if you have to ask, he is not bull material". I then proceeded to read the postings and was educated and enlightened on my lack of knowledge of pedigrees, Maine history, and making a quick decision without looking at all the info. Great post in many ways, and yes I agree, give Phil a call.

HAB · Mar 18, 2013

I will start off by saying I don't know anything about the Main deal, so I need to be educated, obviously.

My only question is...Why is there a NEED for a 48 lb BW bull?

It sounds like there is excitement for a bull with this BW.

Just asking the question.

shortyjock89 · Mar 18, 2013

HAB said:
I will start off by saying I don't know anything about the Main deal, so I need to be educated, obviously.

My only question is...Why is there a NEED for a 48 lb BW bull?

It sounds like there is excitement for a bull with this BW.

Just asking the question.

I think this is a good question. To continue this line of thought, is a 48 lb. BW beneficial in most cases? I could see if you had some wound up HW x Charolais, but to be honest, most of the folks that use ZNT's bulls probably have PB maines or at least heavily influenced. The smaller the calf when it comes out, the longer it takes for it to catch up to its peers (if ever). That being said, I like this calf, and his pedigree really is very interesting. I think if we had a little more hard data the decision could be little easier. What was his WW? How was his ratio when compared to his contemporaries (if any)?

ZNT · Mar 19, 2013

48 pound calves are definitely not what we try to breed for, though we do focus heavily on producing moderate birth weight Maine Anjou cattle. In this instance, it is more of a function of gestation length, rather than just shear size. He was born 28 days early, yet weaned off as the biggest, or second biggest calf we had this fall.

Surprisingly, most of the semen we sell on our bulls is evenly distributed between high percentage cows/heifers, and low percentage/non-Maine cows and heifers. Our bull customers are typically more commercial based herds that do not have the numbers to run specific bulls for their cows, and separate bulls for their heifers, which makes low to moderate birthweight Maine bulls appealing to them.

I do really appreciate all the discussion people provided on this post. Much of it just affirmed my feelings I was leaning toward, and the voting confirmed that. It does always make you second guess yourself when it's a choice between getting paid now for a little less money, vs. investing several months and several hundreds of dollars to develop one into a breeding age bull.

Thank you everyone. <beer>

shortyjock89 · Mar 19, 2013

I was only so blunt with my questions because I knew you wouldn't take offense. I have a lot of respect for your program, and you've made a lot more good Maine Anjou bulls than a lot of people. I bet you know a good one when you raise it. If you think this calf has something to offer, I say keep him. I didn't vote, mostly because I don't know what your customers want more than you do.

ZNT · Mar 19, 2013

Olson Family Shorthorns said:
I was only so blunt with my questions because I knew you wouldn't take offense. I have a lot of respect for your program, and you've made a lot more good Maine Anjou bulls than a lot of people. I bet you know a good one when you raise it. If you think this calf has something to offer, I say keep him. I didn't vote, mostly because I don't know what your customers want more than you do.

Thank you. You have to be pretty thick skinned when you put up a thread like this. I was expecting more criticisms than there were. I am pleasantly surprised how complementary in general it all went.

DCC show cattle · Mar 19, 2013

If the genetics are that good why not rebreed her the same way and see if they truly are calving easy genetics or if the 48# BW was a fluke but personally that's too small even first calf heifers ought to be able to handle a 70 pounder. Good prospect Zane and sweet genetic pool but the birthweight is strange to me because he is so small.

leanbeef · Mar 19, 2013

I'm really curious why he was born 28 days early. That's pretty extreme, and it's outside the window I would consider normal...plus or minus about ten days. Obviously, I like the minus ten days better than the plus ten; 28 days seems like you were lucky not to lose him. Are you sure there wasn't possibly a twin that didn't make it?

The other comment I would have based on what you explained about your customer base is this... Is this calf one that commercial guys would want on mature cows that can handle more birth weight and don't want to sacrifice performance? It's encouraging that he grew fairly well up to weaning, and you might hope he would transmit some early growth to his calves. Just playing Devil's Advocate...does he have the muscle and bone and stoutness you would be looking for in a commercial bull if you sold your calves across the scales at weaning?

I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be a bull or that he isn't marketable. It sounds like a lot of people like the pedigree. I wonder if he'd be more of a niche bull for virgin heifers and not really an all-purpose bull for the guy who keeps one bull to use on every female.

Sell him as a show steer, or keep him a bull? New Pic on 8/11/13

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