Cows here in Texas have been subjected to hell in the form of extreme drought for the past two years. This calf would have been conceived in the late fall of 2011, at which time there was zero winter grass and the cows were unbelievably stressed after coming through the summer of 2011. We fed our cows hard that fall, had them in as good as shape as possible, and had a one-time AI conception rate of right at 30%. Consider it a testatment to the this cows reproductive efficiency that she even bred. 2012 was much better in this part of the world than 2011 - we got 50% of normal rainfall. Almost none of it fell through late spring and summer. I consider any calf born in early fall of 2012 a success, but very little credence should be given to evaluating a calf on actual birth weights born during this time - good or bad. Having a calf born a month early was not unusual for any of us in this part of the world last year. You have to evaluate a calf like this on the known background of his dam and sire as far as calving ease. I would not consider his birthweight to be indicative of a bull whose calves would likely be too small.
Sell him as a show steer, or keep him a bull? New Pic on 8/11/13
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Good informative thread......
As far as a low bw promo bull, with all the bulls to choose from, I would not choose him for an AI sire. As one person said, rib forward great, Flank back SO SO...... But considering the life this guy has come through, maybe some feed will deepen the flank some.
48 lb bw would not lead me to want to use him either. We had a couple of 55 pounders this past week out of heifers. Great deal for a heifer, but would not want them any smaller with the weather we are dealing with. Obviously he is not going to throw 48 pound calves, but in mud, with the cold nights we have had, plus a small calf if gonna go down in a hurry if you have any scour problems.
I would want more info.... What we he do on some decent feed for 90 days?. Sounds like his mama did a nice job raising him which is a plus. I would want to know his pelvis area...... Will his daughters be able to handle a normal sized calf. A friend a while back reminded me when buying a heifer bull, don't go so far that you end up with cows that can't handle 90 pounds......
If I were to use a bull like this, I would want at least some of the above info, and it would be as a heifer only bull in my pasture. There is value there. But I would still lean towards steering him. Of course market him for a while as a bull, you can always cut him if there is no interest, or if someone looks at him and wants him as a steer, cut him and sell him.
As far as a low bw promo bull, with all the bulls to choose from, I would not choose him for an AI sire. As one person said, rib forward great, Flank back SO SO...... But considering the life this guy has come through, maybe some feed will deepen the flank some.
48 lb bw would not lead me to want to use him either. We had a couple of 55 pounders this past week out of heifers. Great deal for a heifer, but would not want them any smaller with the weather we are dealing with. Obviously he is not going to throw 48 pound calves, but in mud, with the cold nights we have had, plus a small calf if gonna go down in a hurry if you have any scour problems.
I would want more info.... What we he do on some decent feed for 90 days?. Sounds like his mama did a nice job raising him which is a plus. I would want to know his pelvis area...... Will his daughters be able to handle a normal sized calf. A friend a while back reminded me when buying a heifer bull, don't go so far that you end up with cows that can't handle 90 pounds......
If I were to use a bull like this, I would want at least some of the above info, and it would be as a heifer only bull in my pasture. There is value there. But I would still lean towards steering him. Of course market him for a while as a bull, you can always cut him if there is no interest, or if someone looks at him and wants him as a steer, cut him and sell him.
Telos
Well-known member
Definitely don't steer him. Most people are not that familiar with untouched photos and are obsessed with the touched up pictures where evey calf looks the same.
He's a 3/4 Maine with some high performance Chi-Angus genetics. He's not going to look like an ideal show steer. The calf still looks like an easy keeper but not one of those tighter wound types that make better steers. He still should have plenty of grow in him. With some time and feed his flank will drop down and have some fat in it.
He's a breeding bull, IMO. He's got some flex, muscle and a genetic base that is saturated with great cow families and great bulls from top to bottom. Those are always the kind that produce consistant high quality progeny.
He's a 3/4 Maine with some high performance Chi-Angus genetics. He's not going to look like an ideal show steer. The calf still looks like an easy keeper but not one of those tighter wound types that make better steers. He still should have plenty of grow in him. With some time and feed his flank will drop down and have some fat in it.
He's a breeding bull, IMO. He's got some flex, muscle and a genetic base that is saturated with great cow families and great bulls from top to bottom. Those are always the kind that produce consistant high quality progeny.
No expert here but, it sounds like he has the genetics to be something special. I'm guessing he is about 6 months old and hitting that awkward stage, I can see he is just about to start looking like a bull, neck is getting a little crest to it, I would like to see him at 12 months, I think he will look much different.
Telos
Well-known member
There is not one animal in his pedigree that is shy on bone. The calf has near perfect bone, IMO. And not too round or coarse. Maybe shy on leg hair or needs to be boned to be appreciated.
RundelLivestock
Member
I would cut him as a bull he doesn't fit the bill in my mind. A bull is supposed to be stout and ruggedly designed! For a Maine he doesn't have that added power the foot and bone size he may have some incredible genetics but phenotypically he looks like a heifer! Lautner isn't going to waste his time on a bull like that he doesn't have power! I know epds are looked at by a lot of people but in todays clubbie industry not many people care all they care about is the BW and how much style and power will this bull add to my cows. I would cut him as a steer and send him on his way!
Just thought I would post up a picture of a 7/8 mate to the calf in question on this post. The pictured bull is also sired by SZH Deuces Are Wild, and out of our ZNT Jenna donor cow. Jenna is out of Hardcore, and out of a CTR Success daughter, just like the cow that produced the calf in this post.
Picture is from the 2013 Texas State Jr. Maine Show where our bull was Res. Maine Bull. Stop by and see him in Grand Island Next month. The bull was show as a "blow and go" just 2 1/2 months after we slick sheared him.
And for an update, we did leave the calf in this post a bull.
Picture is from the 2013 Texas State Jr. Maine Show where our bull was Res. Maine Bull. Stop by and see him in Grand Island Next month. The bull was show as a "blow and go" just 2 1/2 months after we slick sheared him.
And for an update, we did leave the calf in this post a bull.
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Telos
Well-known member
Congrats!!! Nice looking calf. Natalie You are sure growing up, too. Never would imagine you ever getting big enough to showing a bull. Way to go and good luck with him at Junior Nationals.
Telos
Well-known member
I would like to bring this calf back up for discussion and compare him to his 7/8 brother in blood. Even though he doesn't appear to be as balanced he also has a little less Maine and a shot more of Angus. That Angus cow which was the base cow of this bull was a direct 6807 out of a tremendous donor. When I look at this calf I can sure see the 6807 genetics at work. I think when you consider his deep forerib and a little more leather it seems to throw him off balance in comparison to his flank. I still feel like this is a tremendous bull prospect as well. This calf as well as his brother has a pretty impeccable pedigree.ZNT said:So this is an interesting decision to make on this calf. It is a decision of potential marketability as a low birth weight, polled, high percentage Maine bull, versus steering him and making a very solid show steer. Nobody is saying he is going to win the next major, nor that he will be the next Ali, but either direction, he does bring value.
So here is what he is.
3/4 Maine out of a Sooner x DMCC Jazz sire, and a Hardcore x CTR Success cow. He is TH and PHA Free, and only had a 48# birth weight. His dam is a 3/4 sib to our ZNT Jenna 707T donor cow that produced Montego Bay and Moves Like Jagger. He was born in early September.
I am looking forward to hearing the talking points on this one.
SmithNorthside
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steer him to high in flank
Telos
Well-known member
SmithNorthside said:
I agree he is high in the flank in comparison to his deeper rib, but is probably as deep as most good or great bulls if one was to actually measure. It's uncommon to get a high % Maine with that kind of rib shape and there is illusion when it comes to the juxtaposition of forerib to flank.
You are looking at a young bull (Not photoshopped) that is not fat and should not be fat yet. Fat deposits in the flank with feed and is not worth much in raising cattle for beef. It does express doing ability but this calf at time of picture had not been feed hard.
Single trait selection of flank is not the best criteria for evaluating beef cattle and can be misleading, IMO. I believe he is going to make somebody a really good, practical and functional bull.
I don't know if ZNT has been feeding this bull. Perhaps a current picture will give us a better idea as to how he is maturing.
Thought I would give a little update on how the calf in this post is doing. It has been 5 months since he was last clipped and pictured, so I took a little time today to clean him up as we are getting closer to bull marketing time. You won't see any fluff today since we are in full summer here in Texas. 100 degrees when these pics were taken.
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mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
He has really filled out and changed-he looks too much like a bull to steer him now-and I mean a GOOD bull calf.With that lower 1/4 I wouldnt give his flank a decond thought. O0
Telos
Well-known member
You should have steered him... Just kidding!
That is an amazing beef bull that should make some great show steers and females. Like everything about him, especially his internal dimension. Congrats on raising him. Will you collect semen on him?
That is an amazing beef bull that should make some great show steers and females. Like everything about him, especially his internal dimension. Congrats on raising him. Will you collect semen on him?
Heismanziel
Member
nice very nice
