11 out of 13

[r.n.reed]

Then one doesn't need to look too far to find complimentary (Shorthorn) bulls to meet the requirements you laid out.
We live in a great time, with the advantages of reproductive and genomic technology and the ability to communicate the experience of at least a half century of individual animals and breeders.
Ever the idealist, when I ask,
Where do we take cows like that to restore optimal commercial performance in their daughters?
I include replacement capability in the meaning of optimal commercial cow. My thought is we do not have the luxury to produce dead end cattle of either gender. We have to breed production and reproduction.

I would call it more of a necessity for survival than idealism.

 

[beebe]

:-\From beebe:Correction.  The Commander calves are out of a different cow.  I confused them with KC Clipper Duke calf.

Not to digress, because I don't consider this a total digression from the breeding and philosophy behind Frontline...
You put the Clipper bull on the dam of Cherry Filet? So this is very like an old 7T strategy?
And what did you put Commander on?

For rn, of the 13 herd sires you have used, how many went to Milking Shorthorn within 3 generations?
I think the old Milking Shorthorn is a component we should not let slip away.
I see the advantage of breeding your own bulls to be the ability to hand sort sort the cows in the pedigree. Using something as deeply bred as Frontline is a way to grip the accuracy that is so slippery with outcross bulls.
When a bull like Frontline is the outcross, my question would be how to employ that history of cow selection to ratchet up maternal question marks in old genetics. With one cross, any cow will produce a calf that inherits 50% of a lifetime of Kaper selection. Then what?
Where do we take cows like that to restore optimal commercial performance in their daughters?
Not to rebreed clones of any particular program, but to blend gene pools related something like 12.5%- 25% top and bottom.
[/quote
The commander calves are out of a Secret Beauty cow.  The 189 calf is by KC Clipper Duke, not Clipper King of USA.  We will see what we get.

 

[librarian]

Thanks,rn, for all the years of diligence you have given to Shorthorns and for sharing so much history with those of us that weren't there.
We are all idealists in the Shorthorn world, it's how we survive all the challenges. This might be too blurry to read, but I think it describes the life of a breeder poetically. Asked what he would do if he could live his life over, he replies with an idea for which cows to put with a "Quaker bull."

 

[r.n.reed]

For me it is eternal optimism and a good dose of Dutch stubbornness.It's not just in our head and heart.Though few, there are scenarios out there that prove the Shorthorn has the potential to make a positive impact on the commercial beef industry.
Reading that old article makes me think of the line ''Nothing new under the sun''.If I remember my ancient history correctly the Knightly strain was dual and I think played a role in the foundation of the Flintstone herd here in the US.Fisher wanted to cross these with the Cruikshank line.Sounds a lot like what guys like Beebe are doing today.
Your concerns about losing the dual influence in this breed can be put to rest.I would challenge any one to present an existing registered Shorthorn that does not have some dual influence in its pedigree.
My first exposure to Dual Shorthorns was an article in the Prairie Farmer Magazine probably about 1970.It was a report on a feedout test in Texas done by a college I believe.The short of it was the MS steers had gains and yields comparable to Charolais and quality comparable to the english breeds.The Dual herds that I purchased my foundation females from had more carcass and performance data than most ''beef'' herds have today and back then.When I started my herd I double reg. because the AMSS had a performance program and even had a fieldman to promote it.The ASA had nothing at the time.
As my current pedigrees reflect,I don't believe they were or are the total answer,but the right kind had some valuable traits to offer.

 

[Duncraggan]

It would be interesting to try the cross but at the same time I think we sometimes let nostalgia drive our decisions. My guess is Frontline has as many or more years of careful breeding in his pedigree than many of the old time bulls. I have and probably will continue to add older bulls to my program but I think one needs to be mindful that you can lose as much as you gain in a lot of instances! I would be more inclined to use one of the Muridale descendants of Bonnyview Hero 7Z where the blending of past and present has been successfully accomplished.
[/quote]

Of the 13 herd bulls I have had since 1973 this guy has 11 of them in his pedigree.The two that missed out were homebreds with similar pedigrees.

Thanks to breeders like the two of you, Okotoks, I have taken you to task about 'sailing close to the wind' as far as inbreeding goes, I have made the change to following your example!
My herd consultant, calf breeding unknown, in 2014 called the progeny of homebred sires as better than the AI progeny when he went through the herd. So much so that in Spring 2014 I abandoned my TAI programme, albeit that conditions were poor and the suitability amongst the females was poor.
r.n.reed, you need to get some export qualified semen collected, there will be a demand, you have a great programme. It is a pity that you can move money around the world at the touch of a button , but genetics are another story!

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

i kept my best calf to use as a bull this year. Kaper sired. I'm happy as a clam with him.

 

[r.n.reed]

Duncraggen,the export arena has been nothing but a frustration for me.From all kinds of incompetence to lightning to just plain bad luck.The problem is compounded by being a small operation.One of these times things might click,I am always hopeful.I also want you to know that I too have great respect for Okotoks as a Shorthorn breeder.
Brock,one of the most satisfying things in this business is hearing of someone who is pleased with the results of using  your genetics.I look forward to watching your herd develop.

 

[carl]

Just read this thread and couldn't agree more about using your own herd bulls. I think a lot of purebred breeders are missing the boat on this. I see a lot of people looking for a new out cross bull every year. Even worse is the indiscriminate use of AI bulls with everyone rushing to try the latest and greatest. I have seen herds of cattle ruined by this. As long as you have a clear view in your head of the type of cattle you want to raise, and don't waiver from it, using your own genetics and similar bloodlines is an excellent way to lock in the predictability that we are all looking for. Yes you will need to add some fresh genetics but not every year or on every cow.

 

[RedBulls]

Just read this thread and couldn't agree more about using your own herd bulls. I think a lot of purebred breeders are missing the boat on this. I see a lot of people looking for a new out cross bull every year. Even worse is the indiscriminate use of AI bulls with everyone rushing to try the latest and greatest. I have seen herds of cattle ruined by this. As long as you have a clear view in your head of the type of cattle you want to raise, and don't waiver from it, using your own genetics and similar bloodlines is an excellent way to lock in the predictability that we are all looking for. Yes you will need to add some fresh genetics but not every year or on every cow.

AMEN! And...this phenomenon is sure not exclusive to the Shorthorn Breed.

 

[Dale]

A neighbor with another British breed and I used to load a trailer with fall-born steer calves to go to TX each spring.  Consistently calves by his own bulls suited the buyer better than his AI calves, which were more extreme in type.  There is a lot of good to be said for moderation--I wonder if we could convince those running for POTUS of that?